[music]
>> Welcome to a Gypsy's Kiss.
Tonight's live conversation is with
Justin Posey, creator of the modern
treasure hunt Beyond the Map's Edge.
Over the past several weeks, members of
the treasure hunting community submitted
thoughtful questions about hunt design,
intent, and experience.
Those questions helped shape tonight's
discussion, not to solve the hunt, but
to better understand how it was created
and how modern treasure hunts are meant
to be experienced.
This conversation will focus on design
philosophy, creative process, and
stewardship without spoilers or
solutions.
Now, here's your host, Toby Yunis.
Thank you, Eric. And Justin, I can't
tell you how good it is to see you, and
thank you for joining me tonight. I'm
sure my audience is excited to have you
here.
I appreciate you having me, Toby. It's
been a while since we've last spoken, so
thanks for having me on. Well, the last
time was a champagne party with birthday
cake and the Tamaya, was it Was that the
last time we actually saw each other? It
might have been. It's been quite a
while, yeah. Yeah, so great to be here.
Oh, good. I hope I hope
this will go well enough that you'll
come back in the future sometime. I hope
so, too.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh couple of things, audience. Uh for
those of you who sent in the 200
questions that you wanted me to ask
Justin, uh we took the best of the best
and we've incorporated them into the
conversation. That's the first thing.
The second thing is Justin has given me
a time of about 1 hour, so there's a lot
to get through in that time. And
there was something else I needed to
say. Oh, I wanted you to know that
Justin has not seen the questions in
advance. He's seeing He's hearing and
seeing these questions
for the first time. So, because we have
a limited amount of time, I'm going to
jump right into questions. Justin, you
okay with that? Happy to oblige. All
right. Uh what you're going to see is
that I've divided my questions into six
different areas. Uh I won't introduce
each area, but I will uh let you know
that I'm about to start a new area. Uh
these are These are the six questions
that if he had given me 5 minutes to
have a conversation, I would have asked.
All right?
All right. And Fenn's chest was found in
2020. The auction happened in 2020 20
2022.
Uh your launch in 2025. Somewhere in
that gap, you decided to step into the
arena.
When was the moment you knew you were
going to do this?
You know, I
>> [clears throat]
>> I had thrown around the idea for many
years, especially looking for Forest
treasure. I had always had this in the
infinitesimally small chance that I
found it, this idea that I could rehide
it. And I certainly wasn't the only one
to have that idea.
Um a lot of people did.
Uh but I think just I ended up being a
position where I could make it happen,
and
uh you know, there were a few driving
factors that kind of led up to that. I
think one of them was
uh you know, some some pretty serious
health concerns. And I think that causes
a lot of self-reflection.
And I tried to
I really wanted to think about how
uh
if things didn't turn out so well for
me, how I wanted to experience the
whatever [snorts] time that I had. And
so, I chose to funnel that into a
treasure hunt.
Oh, what a great decision and what a
great way to resolve uh life's life's
continuing issues, you know?
Congratulations on that decision. Uh
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah. Fenn still with lawsuits,
stalkers, and chaos. Why knowingly take
on that same burden? Did you ever almost
talk yourself out of it?
It's an interesting choice of words, uh
burden.
Um
And I think at times, it's easy to feel
that way. Uh
I don't think anybody who's experienced
the full arc of a large-scale treasure
hunt
goes in uh naive, not knowing what could
happen.
Uh so, I I went in, as they say, eyes
wide open.
Um
But really, what it what it boiled down
to is the the experience that I had and
how much ultimately joy that it brought
to me. And I realized that I wasn't
alone in that regard.
And I felt like the world uh lost
something
with the
uh the ending of the Fenn treasure hunt.
And so, I'm by no means, you know,
trying to create the magic of what
Forest did. His certainly stands alone.
Uh but I wanted to do what I could to
uh
further the magic in what other way
whatever way that I could. And this was
the best that I could muster.
So, that actually brings me to the next
question. Uh how did the chaos at the
end of the Forest Fenn hunt influence
the guardrails you built into this one?
Well, very much so. Um you know, Forest
didn't have
the the the ability of hindsight. He
It ended. A lot of things were chaotic,
and I think it was very reactionary in
nature.
Uh but it was also an excellent case
study.
And so, for me,
um I think that's really where the
rubber hit the road in terms of seeing
everything that
could have gone better. And by no fault
of his own, he just didn't didn't know.
Um so, I did the best that I could based
on my observations and the experience
that I had to iterate on that and ensure
that it might be, hopefully,
uh a smoother experience. You know,
treasure hunts are are all fun and games
until it's found. Uh and then a lot of
unfortunate things can happen. And you
know, I'm I'm aware of those potentials.
Uh but I've done what I can to um make
the ending as streamlined as possible
and also make it as
uh
authentically and independently
verifiable as possible.
So, I do want to mention for those of
you that don't already know uh a lot of
the information relating to the hunt,
including the rules of the hunt, uh are
on Justin's website, and that's at
treasure.quest. And I've put it down in
the um
uh in the tagline below us. So, uh if
you haven't checked that out, I'd be
surprised if any of you haven't checked
it out. But if you haven't, make sure
you go there to visit. And it's very
well well done, as everything that
Justin does, well very well done, uh
website.
Uh the phrase {quote} zero doubt
{unquote} resonates strongly with the
community. Conceptually, what does that
mean to you as a designer?
Uh in what context?
In what context? In the context of how
people see your treasure hunt, zero
doubt.
Yeah, so I I I mean, I can recall
offhand a few times I might have
mentioned that that very specific term
in maybe a few different contexts. But
generally speaking,
uh
I wanted to design a treasure hunt where
the person that
finds it
uh along the way,
they will gain
confidence as opposed to, you know, a
status quo.
Um I think, you know, Forest treasure
hunt was interesting.
You went from zero to one. There was no
in between. It's like you you could be 5
ft away and and and not know it. And and
that's certainly
um you know, at least to a certain
degree, there are some of those
possibilities in my treasure hunt as
well. But um it was the clues, as you
progress through them, it was a question
of
uh am I on the right track? And you
really truly didn't know until the
treasure was in front of you. And that's
something that um
makes treasure hunting hard.
Uh and and and so, I wanted to
kind of play on that a little bit and
and give a way for people to
gain confidence as opposed to
losing or having a status quo of con-
confidence as they work through the
clues.
Um
Setting that aside, whether the treasure
is found tomorrow or years from now, how
will you personally know this hunt was a
success?
How will I know it's a success? Well,
um
I think that there are enough mechanics
in play such that I will will know
when the treasure has been found.
And
action can be taken at that time.
Uh
Now, I mean, I could get run over by a
bus tomorrow. And I have to ensure that
the treasure hunt can run smoothly
without me being here. And I feel
confident that it can.
Um
think that's about all I can say about
that. Um
Let me think about this for a moment. Um
No, I think that's good.
All right. [clears throat] I think
that's good. So, let's I I wasn't
planning to ask follow-on questions, but
I think I think I
I want to on this one. Uh let's say uh
40 years from now,
uh you it's 10 years past when your
treasure was found. And somebody says,
uh was it a success? How would you know
it was a success other than it was
found?
My gosh, 40 years ago. I I 40 years 40
years from now and and 10 years after it
was found would imply that it's been 30
years.
>> Hypothetically, hypothetically.
[laughter]
Yeah,
I really don't think it's going to take
that long but the temporal aspect aside,
how will somebody judge whether it's a
success?
You know, I I think
there's only so much that you can do in
terms of
of clues and what they mean.
At some point they need interpretation.
And I think
for any given clue that somebody
creates, there's another person in the
world that will look at it and say that
makes no sense at all.
And so I tried to design the treasure
hunt in a way where
even if
one particular clue
may not make 100%
sense to a given individual
they can still I guess for lack of a
better term limp along and ultimately
piece things together.
Um
but I think the ultimate gauge of
success is
um
was the find verifiable?
Uh
did the treasure actually exist?
And um
maybe it's also a function of the number
of conspiracy theories that exist post
find.
Uh I have to think that there's an
inverse relationship there. So I would
also say that the the less conspiracy
theories exist, the better the success
of the treasure hunt.
I I think that's an excellent measure. I
think that's a good measure.
You created treasure.quest as the
official home for the hunt. Rules,
updates and classification all live
there. What role did you intend that
site to play in balancing official
guidance with organic community
discussions?
Uh good question. Um
I I wanted to design the site as a
central hub.
So that you're generally one click away
from any sort of information that is
hunt related.
And so you do not need to be in the
Discords. You do not need to be on
all the different social media channels
24/7. Now I'm saying it's totally fine
to do that. It's a great community
outlet for a lot of people and I think
that social engagement is really
powerful but it's not necessary.
Uh everything that is related to the
hunt
I want a centralized location where you
can go to one spot, treasure.quest on
the announcements page and you can see
anything that I post that is
specifically related to the hunt,
whether it's a YouTube interview like
this that of course I'll link after
we're done here.
Uh or anything else that I think is is
relevant. Now I I know that um
from time to time there are murmurs of
oh well I you know I I went to a lunch
with the treasure hunter or I dropped
into a Discord and said hello um or
answered a few questions and I think
that really boils down to trust in the
creator.
And it's a question of whether or not
you believe that the creator is not
going off in private conversations and
giving away private hints.
And that I think is just an important
foundation for any treasure hunt. If you
think the creator is capable of doing
that then it's probably not the right
treasure hunt for you.
Uh but
to the best of my abilities this is what
I do is I I treat the the the website as
the the single source of truth and I
update it as regularly as I'm able to
make sure that it has all the
information anybody needs within a few
clicks away
uh of the of the pertinent details.
So let's go on to round one. That was
round zero.
Um you're an engineer by trade. Uh what
was harder, engineering the logic of the
hunt or crafting the narrative history
around it?
No gosh. Uh narrative history, hm.
I don't
So by narrative history are you
referring to the book?
>> telling, yeah. Oh my goodness, yeah. Um
you know, the treasure hunt came
together fairly quickly.
Uh you know, the
I had never written a book before. Of
course I'd never I guess you arguably
you could say I have designed
uh treasure hunts before but to
far lesser degrees than this one. Um but
for the book, I don't I don't recall
ever writing a book before. So
uh that that was that was that was
harder. Um you know, some
some chapters came very easily and very
quickly and others were a struggle.
Um but it really made me realize uh that
I should leave writing to the
professionals. It's
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah, it's it's an unenviable
profession. I think there's um it's that
grind each day where you know, you you
need to sit down you need to write
something and you need to and you need
to know that what you're writing you're
probably going to change 30 times before
it gets released. Uh so I think that was
the harder aspect to me was the actual
writing of the book as opposed to the
mechanics of the treasure hunt itself
just because I think probably in an
engineering mindset I can
uh I felt a at least a base level of
confidence I think that I could
put all the pieces together in terms of
Yeah, I mean I think what is in effect a
a verification chain
uh so that later on
somebody can look at this independently
and say yeah, I mean
it checks out. Like this this works.
Mhm. Yeah, it is a process. We we found
out in our treasure hunt that it's not
as simple as writing a book and a poem
and putting a treasure out there. It's a
there's a bunch of pieces that all have
to fit together in the end. So.
So I used AI to analyze your public
interviews.
Uh it described you as an open book on
narrative but a steel vault on
mechanics. Is that a fair assessment?
>> [snorts]
>> Well, I think that's in the eye of the
beholder.
Uh
I I you know, I
I I try and be very cautious around
certain mechanics because
I think those words carry more gravity
and they need to be crafted very
carefully especially in a public
setting.
And so I'm I'm much more
apt to answer those types of questions
if it's in written form because it gives
me time to really think through it and
analyze it before I I provide a full
answer as opposed to something that's
well, like this.
Uh more verbal and off the cuff you
know, the the potential for mistakes is
higher and those mistakes have
repercussions, right? I mean people as
we know in all treasure hunts they they
mince and slice and dice every word that
comes out and this will be no different.
And so
um you know, I think back when I was
searching for the Forrest Fenn treasure,
the last thing that I wanted was from
for Forrest to say something that was
incorrect.
Uh and I would much rather him take his
time and respond
uh very deliberately and diligently as
opposed to something off the cuff. And I
I I seem to recall maybe it was you that
created a kind of a pyramid of truth.
Mhm. You know, and it's at at the base
you have something where Forrest took
his time or a treasure hunt creator took
their time and they wrote it down and
you know, maybe they it's even on their
website or in their book. Like that is
kind of the foundation and you kind of
move up from there. When you get to the
very top as I recall it's like oh you
know, it's an off the cuff uh
answer verbally in you know, a
non-professional setting like that.
That's going to carry far less weight.
So I I hope I hope people keep that in
mind but I I try to do the best I can.
You know, if I think about all the
statements that I said
since the treasure hunt has launched
um just
>> [sighs]
>> to the best of my recollection there's
nothing
that I recall saying that was
incorrect. And I think from time to time
people look at that and say oh well I've
got this statement and that statement
and they're at odds with each other.
Um but I think it's really important to
context in which it was said
and [snorts] I think once people
you know, consider that they may come to
a different conclusion that oh actually
these two things can fit together in a
complementary way.
Yeah, that whole thing was based upon
how the intelligence community evaluates
incoming in information before it
actually becomes usable. So I'm that's
I'm glad you remembered that. Thank you.
>> [laughter]
>> So before I get technical, I promised
Emma of Emma and Jam treasure hunt
podcast.
>> I'm already afraid.
>> [laughter]
>> She I promised she I'd ask this question
for her. Between her and Jam, whose
hosting style do you find more
entertaining and why?
Oh my gosh. Really putting me on the
spot here.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh
I would say it depends on how many
drinks either of them have had.
>> [laughter]
>> That's good. I haven't seen I don't I
assume that I did an interview with them
recently. I didn't know if either one of
them was drinking but
>> [laughter]
>> I don't know either.
Maybe I could guess.
How does your grandfather's legacy
influence the emotional center of this
hunt even if it's not the solution
itself?
Well, my my grandfather I think of
you know, I had I
I like to believe that I had very strong
um male role models and figures in my
life especially in my early life and he
was one of those people.
And so
you know, to me it's uh
it means a great deal and
uh I think that um
the way in which those people that
impress upon you early in life and shape
who you are.
Uh there's
I don't I don't want to say an
obligation, but there is
a need for them to be remembered.
And um
I think that that is certainly important
to me.
Yeah.
Oh, it comes across.
Uh let's go on to round two. From a
design perspective, did you
intentionally build in moments that
signal to a searcher, {quote} you may be
drifting too far, {unquote} before they
commit major resources?
For whatever reason, my audio cut out
briefly. Could you just repeat that for
me, please?
>> to. Thank you.
>> From a design perspective, did you
intentionally build in moments that
signal to a searcher, {quote} you may be
drifting too far, {unquote} before they
commit major resources?
Hm.
>> [clears throat]
>> I think that's a very hard thing to do
in a treasure hunt.
Um
You know, at some point
I think as I've mentioned before, like
there is
you will not solve the entirety
of the clues
sitting at home. I think you'll you
could have a very good idea,
uh but you can't necessarily or you
cannot solve it entirely from home. So,
there is a boots-on-the-ground
component. I think like for any treasure
hunt
uh or for many treasure hunts, that's
true. I get the kind of the same sense
from say John Collins' black hunt as
well. There is a lot of analytical
thinking involved. It seems clear
enough, but additionally, at some point
even if you know the the area, you have
to go out and and find it.
And
uh so, what I did try and avoid is this
notion of drudgery in the form of
you know, grid searching an area day
after day after day
and um
the resources that can be consumed as a
result of that.
Uh but it's also a balance between that
and
well, the sense of adventure. And I
think the core of adventure is
beyond your map's edge, getting off and
doing something getting away and doing
something that you wouldn't normally do.
And you know, there can be a bit of
expense involved in that, you know, the
logistics of of going to a place and so
on.
Uh but I tried to design it in a way
where uh there is a balance where you
you do get that experience,
but you do not need to spend
you know, exorbitant amounts of of time
uh draining resources uh in the outdoors
in order to find the treasure.
And I think also there's a balance
between protecting them from themselves
and limiting their imagination.
Uh because I think imagination is what
sells a treasure hunt. So. Oh boy, I I
don't think truer words were never
spoken. I think that's spot-on and it's
it's a hard balance, especially in
today's society with all of the
you know, legalities and so on. Uh I do
miss the
or reminisce about maybe a
an earlier time where it was
kind of the more romantic version of
just going out and
hiding something and
saying, "Just go find it." Like that's
really the end of it. But unfortunately,
this is not quite the world we live in.
Yeah. Yeah.
Uh you built this hunt largely in
isolation. Now that it's live, has
anything about how people engage with it
surprise you?
Uh
hm.
I think all treasure hunts have their
unique surprises.
Um
Kind of reminds me of a book by Raymond
Chen many years ago. I think it was
called the
the old new thing or the new old thing.
Uh
um
There are certain patterns that
certainly repeat. And you know, I think
no matter what treasure hunt is out
there, there's going to be a certain
amount of you know, just drama that
surrounds it and I think there are
certain personalities that kind of get
attracted and latch onto that.
Um
I don't know if this is answering your
question, though. I
um Do you want to repeat the question to
make sure I get this right? Uh you built
this hunt largely in isolation. Yeah.
And you did that to protect yourself and
the hunt. Now that it's live, has
anything about how people engage with it
surprise you?
Um
I think there have been you know, there
have been a few
you know, acute situations where I felt
like I I I set out set up enough ground
rules and was really clear about things
where I thought, "Well, maybe this is
clear enough where people won't do XYZ."
Uh but unfortunately, they still do. And
you know, that's unfortunate, but it
shouldn't be surprising to me. Uh but it
was a little surprising.
>> [laughter]
>> I guess just call me naive. Uh
But no, I think I think generally
speaking so far, um
the only thing that I I think has
surprised me is that I thought the
technical clue would have been found a
little bit earlier than it did. Um
It does not surprise me that it was
released publicly. I I I figured that
would happen. And I was hoping that
would happen cuz it's just the kind of
thing that it was an Easter egg. And it
really wasn't meant to be kind of a core
part of the solution. And it was very
technical for some people. And so, I
didn't want people to get the impression
that, "Oh, it's like oh my gosh, this is
the the foundation for this treasure
hunt. If I can't solve this, I'm not
going to solve anything." It's not like
that. Um
it's just something fun that I put in.
Uh but yeah, it probably probably took a
little bit longer for people to solve
that than I anticipated. And I think
kind of the treasure hunt as a whole, uh
part of me really thought that it would
have been found by now. And of course it
hasn't. Uh
but uh time will tell. Time will tell.
Well, I love the idea that you think it
should have been found by now. I think
that's going to be exciting to a lot of
searchers to hear that. Oh.
>> [laughter]
>> Um let's go back to Treasure Quest for
just one more one more question. And and
this is based on a hypothesis of mine
rather than anything else. The site
places clear emphasis on rules, safety,
and boundaries. How early in the design
process did you realize that the rules
themselves were part of the hunt's
architecture and not just legal
housekeeping?
Uh that the rules were part of the
architecture? Um
Yeah, I mean I think there's a recipe
for a
a good solid treasure hunt and rules are
certainly
an aspect of that recipe.
Um
So, I think it's fair to say I realized
early on that there needs to be ground
rules. Um and that was iterative based
on what we saw with Forrest Fenn's
treasure hunt. I really wanted to avoid
um any sort of injury or worse as it
pertains to a treasure hunt. And that's
always the balance that you have
between, you know, what is a true
adventure without you know, at least
kind of the feeling of of of danger. Uh
but also,
you know, having some guardrails on it,
but not to the point where it's it's
bubble wrapped and
and not fun. Uh not adventurous. So,
uh yeah, I mean I think to answer your
question, the
I I think I realized very early on that
a
a solid set of ground rules were really
paramount to making sure that things
stay on the rails and that uh
people stay safe.
Um do you think modern treasure hunts
are sometimes misunderstood because
people bring expectations from past
hunts that no longer apply?
Oh, certainly. You know, I I think
um
I mean even just you know, the the
experiences that people have throughout
their life as they grow old
uh shapes who they are. And um it shapes
their opinions.
And I think it's no different with
treasure hunts. Uh
you know,
people had asked me early on, you know,
do you need
to have gone through the Forrest Fenn
experience in order to be successful
with this treasure hunt? Or do you I
need to have a you know, a deep
knowledge of Forrest Fenn to figure this
out?
And
you know, to the best of my abilities, I
ensured that that
uh
doesn't need to happen. Um
You know, I mean there's always biases.
Everybody has them. Myself included, of
course. Uh and
that's why I think just like the the
awareness of
a potential bias is step one
uh in making sure that you don't uh kind
of carry forward things that might I
wouldn't say taint, but
shape a treasure hunt in a way that
would give an advantage to somebody who
has
a prior experience with say, the Forrest
Fenn treasure hunt.
So, I do want to take just one moment to
say something to the audience. Ladies
and gentlemen, I very much appreciate
the fact that some of you have
contributed via super chat. And I'm
sorry I don't have time or I don't have
the resources to recognize each one. I
see them and I'm very grateful. And if I
had a Shelly here, she could handle
doing
this,
you know,
uh but I'm just very much focused on
this. So, I would I don't want you to
think I'm not noticing and I don't want
you to think that I'm not grateful. I I
am noticing and I am grateful. And since
that one just happened, thank you, Ted.
I feel like the bum here. I feel like I
should be running the super chats or
something.
>> [laughter]
>> Um round three.
Uh you've advised against searching in
the snow. Is that primarily an access
issue or a concealment issue?
Access or concealment? Um
It's primarily a safety issue. Huh.
Uh
>> stick that in there. That I should made
that part of it. Yeah, I mean I I don't
want anybody doing anything
uh dangerous. And you know, it's it's
funny because
you know, danger is relative. You know,
for for people that say
uh are used to the snow,
it could actually be far less dangerous
than going to say New Mexico in in July
and and running out of water. You know,
I mean I did the heat is actually
a much more dangerous
aspect than the cold here in the US, but
um
you know, I
the primary aspect is safety. I don't I
don't want anybody getting hurt, and I
think um
yeah, that's all I'll say about that.
Broadly speaking, how important was
physical safety in deciding where and
how the treasure was placed?
Uh
there were definite safety aspects
considered.
Um
you know, I certainly
wouldn't want somebody
scaling a cliffside,
you know, and what's carabiners and rope
in order to get to a location.
Uh so, to the best of my abilities, I've
I've hidden it in a spot that uh
is safe. And
you know, I safe is a relative term. You
know, it's like, well, it's in the
wilderness, and
there are animals in the wilderness. Uh
there there are there's weather in the
wilderness.
Uh but to the best of my abilities, I've
hidden it in a location that I think is
is safe.
Good.
Um let's see.
Oh, okay. So, this is just a
continuation of the safety thing.
Without specifics, is this a hunt you'd
feel comfortable with people
approaching responsibly with older
children?
Yeah, so for
for legal reasons, I will say that the
treasure hunt is for adults,
uh 18 years or older.
Um
you know, I mean, practically speaking,
I'd love to say more about that, uh but
from a legal perspective, I can say it's
it it's an adult endeavor. Okay. I had a
second part to that that asked about
younger children, but I understand your
point, and I'm not going to push it.
On to round four, what responsibilities
does the steward have once the treasure
is found, especially regarding
verification and disclosure?
The steward plays a very important role.
The the steward is there
for a couple of different reasons. One
is
to verify
the authenticity of the finder, to make
sure that they genuinely found the
treasure.
And there is a foolproof
way that that happens.
Uh
and it also is what you call zero
knowledge in its approach in the sense
that the
steward does not know where the
treasure's at.
But based on the true finder that comes
forward,
uh a few things can be divulged. One uh
can be deciphered. One is yes, this
person is telling the truth. They are
the one person that found the treasure.
And two, uh
we can say with 100% certainty where the
treasure was.
And then, once that process is complete,
the steward is in possession of
additional items that will be released
to the person that finds the treasure.
Probably most notably is the
um
the other half of the the Bitcoin wallet
key.
Uh
and it's actually some other
interesting things as well.
And then, uh the other responsibility of
the steward is to
ensure that no one continues to search.
Um because you don't certainly don't
want people out searching for something
that's already been found.
So, those are really the the main
responsibilities, and I think they're
very it's a vital part of of a
a
well-constructed treasure hunt.
I would love to have a conversation, and
maybe you already have had, about the
concept of a Bitcoin wallet key, because
I don't know anything about it. Nothing.
And I went looking for it on YouTube the
other day, and now all I'm getting is
advertising for small Bitcoin treasure
hunting devices that you
plug in nearby. So, It got your number,
yeah. Yeah,
>> [laughter]
>> yeah, I need to know a lot more about
that.
Uh you've described the container as,
quote, extremely recognizable, unquote.
What makes it meaningful to you without
getting into identification details?
I think it will be abundantly clear to
anybody who has been involved in this
treasure hunt
why it's important to me once it's been
found.
Um but I will say it
it is of great significance to me.
And it is something that was built uh
specially.
Yeah.
Um once the hunt concludes, how
transparent do you intend to be about
the solution and the process?
Oh, that's a
a good question.
Um
You know, it's funny, [snorts] like when
this treasure hunt first started, I
thought
uh I want to move this along quickly.
And
I still do.
That being said, I also don't want
to
alienate somebody who has put in the
time and the effort
and feel that they are close, and to
kind of rob them of that by limping
everybody else along
uh to near the finish line.
Uh and I think the same could be said
uh post treasure hunt as well. Maybe
there are people out there that want to
continue to solve the clues for fun and
and kind of figure it out on their own.
Um
but I suspect there will be more people
way more people that will just want to
know what was it. And
so my plan at this time is is to
actually release the full solution that
would include
uh you know, a key or the solution to
all the clues.
And
um and I think in order to put things to
rest, to show
the authentic and genuine nature of the
treasure hunt, um
some supporting documentation would
would also be released to give zero
doubt to people that it it it was hidden
at
a specified location.
Uh so, that's that's my plan.
Good.
What was the moment
where was there a moment where you
deliberately removed something from the
hunt to preserve its integrity?
There was nothing that I removed from
the hunt
due to
integrity.
There were things that ultimately did
not get included
in the the physical vessel
um because it just didn't fit.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh it's literally
I mean, filled to the brim, filled to
the gills. And I I I really couldn't put
anything else in it.
And so, I will say whoever finds it, be
careful
uh
because
uh it is filled very tight.
And um
you know, you would you probably risk
damaging something if you if you aren't
careful about um transporting it.
Now, uh
the things that did not fit,
uh so, funny story. Uh
there were three things, very small
items, uh
I think ultimately very inconsequential,
not not super high value or anything
like that, that I just forgot.
Uh you know, I thought I had all this
this master plan, and typical Justin,
you know, I I I get out there, and I'm
like, where where is, you know, XYZ? And
it wasn't
wasn't there. And I'm like, oh my gosh.
So, that is left with the steward just
because uh I messed up. Uh and then, um
there are a few other things that were
left with the steward because they just
didn't fit. Uh but everything of I think
of real gravitas or of consequence or of
significant value,
um
that at least everything that has been
divulged publicly, that is in the
in the treasure. Uh there are just a few
things that have been set aside that um
I really think that the finder's going
to want.
Yeah. Uh so, let me make sure I
understand. So, these items that you
forgot to include in the container now
are in the hands of the steward. That's
right. And the finder will own them. Oh,
okay. Yes. Yeah. Good. Well, even
better. So, uh I don't have this
question on my list, but my my curiosity
button is
is wavering here.
Um what what happened to the olive jar?
Why is the olive jar, which was this
significant part of the soul of the
Forrest Fenn treasure hunt, end up in
another treasure hunt? I I'm I'm And I
don't mean to put you on the spot over
it, and I don't mean to if if you don't
want to talk about it, fine, but
my curiosity is killing.
Yes, the the heralded olive jar, it has
had quite the journey. Uh you think
about it, it
it started with Forrest, likely there in
Santa Fe, and then, you know, it it
traveled uh well, wherever you think the
treasure was hidden. And it remained
there for the better part of a decade,
and then from there, uh if you uh are in
accordance with Jack Stuef's story, it
went to um
uh New Mexico, as I recall, and then uh
sat in a safe deposit box, and then went
to Texas
uh for the auction, and from there, uh
it ended up coming uh well, actually, it
remained at the auction house. And then,
uh it was sold. So, yeah, I mean, what
what happened with that? So,
um
when the auction house did their
inspection of the various items which
took a very long time. Yeah. They were
able to determine that the seal had not
been broken on the olive jar.
And so it was intact at the time of of
the auction. I had you know an
opportunity to
buy it out from the LLC and keep it
personally.
And I put a tremendous amount of thought
into that. And there were a few
different reasons why I ultimately chose
not to do that.
One is because
um
I
maybe a little bit of self self-doubt or
um
I guess criticism. I didn't
I didn't necessarily feel like I was the
best person to do it.
I think that there was a lot of
conspiracy theories floating around.
And certainly some of them involved
me reportedly, you know, and and so
I felt that if I did this and I opened
it,
nobody
those people would not
believe it.
Even if there was independent
verification. So I felt like I just
wasn't the best person
to do that.
I was really hoping that it would just
become public knowledge. I was actually
very surprised how it turned out. So I
didn't know
that JCB
was interested or even bidding on any of
the items. Of course I didn't know he
was putting together his treasure hunt
at the time. And he did. And so
um
That was kind of the That was the I just
didn't see that one coming. I really
thought whoever bought it
they they were going to open it. And I
thought that you know somebody who paid
significant value for it, it was in
their best interest to make sure that it
was authenticated as part of the
the process of divulging it which surely
they would want to do.
And they didn't.
So
yeah, I mean just kind of a twist. So as
I understand it JCB actually just opened
it himself and just popped it out, read
it and
then kind of put it back together and
put it in his own treasure hunt. So it
had a had a long interesting journey.
Mhm.
This again not on my list.
Have you had any conversations with JCB?
No.
I actually sent one email at some point
to I think his PR person. Mhm. Um but I
have never talked to him.
Mhm.
All right.
I was curious about it. I I'm in the
same state. I'm trying to get an
interview with him and I
it's just communication is with me in a
very
very
briefly written emails in response from
their from his um
handlers.
Um
Most participants never post publicly.
When you think about those silent
searchers, what experience did you most
want them to have?
Oh, the silent searchers. So you mean
posting on social media or
>> No, being part of the discords and
social media and big old YouTube
channels and
What about
>> Well, you know, all things considered
that's the majority of searchers. I get
a lot of emails from people and you
know, of their own accord they mention
I'm not on any social media or I browse
the social media but I never post.
And I get way more emails from those
types of people than the people that are
actually very engaged in social media.
So
um
Yeah, I mean I
I think
um
You know, you think about the Forrest
Fenn treasure hunt and
in retrospect those were the most
dangerous people, right?
>> [laughter]
>> Dangerous as in
competitors. I mean Jack was not much of
a social media guy as I recall. Um maybe
at some point he did he did a little bit
of posting here and there under
pseudonyms and so on. Um
but you know, he was kind of quiet. I
think he kind of came out of nowhere. Um
And so you know, you have to wonder
maybe will that be a similar situation
this treasure hunt? I don't know. I'm
not sure if that answers your questions
but those are probably No, no, no.
I think it does. I think that's a good
answer for it. I have to tell you that I
didn't know it. I never knew it until
after it was bought after the treasure
hunt had ended. He actually called into
our show several times.
>> He did, yeah. And everybody [laughter]
they went
literally started doing
research on all our calling videos to
see what else he had said. And the worst
part about it is I I
you know, I did him the old well, Jack.
He didn't use Jack. He had another name
but
anything is possible, you know.
So I got beat up over that one.
>> [laughter]
>> I thought it was pretty entertaining
actually.
Yeah, so I mean he had actually I think
after that he chose to go and make his
own YouTube video about uh biases. Yeah.
But it's funny to think that if if he
had come on your show that YouTube video
probably never would have existed and
instead he would have talked about it on
your show. Right. Yeah. Well, I was
again I was I was too late to
unsophisticated I was unsophisticated
enough not to realize that he was going
to need some kind of voice even though
he didn't want to have a voice after he
found
the treasure. So Wow. I could have been
better at that as a Tough to judge, you
know, it's hindsight.
What's one misconception you think
people often have about modern treasure
hunts and I'm categorizing them all
together?
Um
The vast majority of people out there I
don't think
maybe even know that they exist.
Um
and
you know, I think just the the anecdotal
experience that I've had is you know,
people will will find out and maybe in
the beginning they'll give you a bit of
a side eye or just kind of a confused
glance.
But for certain personalities I think um
it can suck you in pretty quickly.
And there I think are a lot of what I'd
say converts or people that had
previously had no idea
what this concept even is
and just kind of go head over heels and
dive in and enjoy every moment of it. So
I think that's that's pretty cool.
I was always surprised I was always
surprised about visiting Santa Fe and
I'd bring up the Fenn treasure and how
many people, you know, the vast majority
of people I spoke to had no idea it was
going on.
You know, even though he had been a
gallery owner in Santa Fe.
>> Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting to me.
>> [laughter]
>> Do you have any estimate on how many
people
are looking for your treasure?
I Yeah, I mean I get asked that from
time to time.
Um
you know
So we're we're planning to do a a
get-together in in March called Seeker's
Summit March 27th and 28th in in Tucson.
Mhm. Is M and M and Jam is is that their
>> That's M and Jam's event. They're
running it and you know, I'm one of the
participants. It's a non-denominational
kind of treasure hunt creator event if
you will. So any any creator out there
who'd like to be involved, you know,
contact M and Jam. I'm sure they'd be
more than happy to include you.
Um but that's really the forum I was
planning on
divulging
very accurate statistics but I think in
the interim
at the risk of being slightly off
you know, there's a lot of different
signals that I get
whether it's emails, social media,
anecdotal discussions
talking to Debbie at the bookstore where
people pin their names on the on the map
where they're from, you know, they
travel accordingly. Um
You know, you have to kind of bring all
those data points together. So it's not
just like a function of oh, well, there
were these number of books sold so it
must be this number of people searching.
That's clearly not the case. It's it's a
it's a
It's actually kind of funny that the the
number's a little bit larger than I
anticipated. Um
but you know, my best guess just based
on on everything uh
total
certainly above
active searchers above 10,000 that have
actually gone and searched. Mhm. Um
I wouldn't say it's over 100,000. So
it's between those two numbers. It's
only it's not quite a year old yet. So
that's a pretty good number for a year.
Yeah. So do you have your own version of
the Collected Works bookstore either
locally or in Dillon?
Yeah, so my mother went to high school
with the woman Debbie who owns it's
called The Bookstore
in Dillon, Montana. And um
you know, she just she runs a fantastic
place and she's a fantastic person.
And I think that's probably the closest
equivalent that I I have to a Collected
Works. And you know, they really bent
over backwards in terms of accommodating
the masses that came in you know, when
we had the event up in Dillon, the book
signing. I think we the official number
was somewhere around 1,800 people that
showed up and you know, to a small town
the size of Dillon that was quite the
quite the surprise I think to everybody
myself included.
But yeah, I think the bookstore is is
the place. She's you know, if you're
looking to buy a book I highly recommend
you buy it through Debbie.
You know, she's in a position where I
think she she hopefully still has some
in stock that are signed, you know, if
you're into that sort of thing.
But you know, it's good to support the
local bookstores.
I haven't follow that. I have the one of
the first editions. Have there been
follow-on editions or
you're still good with first?
Yeah, so you know, I I want what was
important to me is
the book was
as accurate as it could be. And so I
maintain an errata page
where if somebody writes in and you
know, they find a mistake,
I will correct it on the errata page.
And so there were
as any book
a number of mistakes that were noted on
the errata page and I felt like it got
to a point where, "Okay, it's starting
to stabilize.
Now's a good time to do a second
printing."
So, it's not really what I call a a
full-on second edition. It's basically,
you know, fixing some minor mistakes
throughout the
the book. And you know, I I It's funny.
I I started thinking about that a little
bit um
the the level of detail that is given or
scrutiny that's given to a a
a treasure hunting book is probably more
so than
maybe any other type of book on the
planet.
And so,
uh
the the chance for someone to find
mistakes in the book I think are
naturally higher because of that extra
scrutiny.
Um but, you know, that that being said,
I feel like it has really stabilized.
There's probably a few few emails that I
haven't gone through yet where people
have mentioned maybe some small things
that that need correction, but for the
most part I think it's stabilized. So,
to answer your question, there's a first
printing and second printing and the
only difference is
some error correction.
Yeah.
At this point, what part of the hunt's
design are you most proud of?
I think the
the part that
I'm most proud of will be most prevalent
after the find and that is the
the verification system that's put in
place and
um
I'm sure that
there's the chance for a mistake, but I
hope that it sets a precedent or another
foundation for how
future verifiable treasure hunts should
be constructed.
Well, that's exciting to look forward
to.
If someone watching tonight is quietly
thinking about creating their own hunt
someday,
what's the one responsibility you'd want
them to fully understand before they
start?
Oh my gosh, it's hard to choose just
one.
Um
Well, give them as much We have We still
I'm I'm a little bit ahead, so give them
as much advice as you want.
Yeah, I mean, there are many things. Um
I mean, one is that
um
you you need to be prepared in all
aspects of your life because
uh people will
will dig and they will try and find
anything and everything to latch onto
uh whether or not to use it for leverage
or otherwise.
Uh you need to decide up front what kind
of treasure hunt creator you're going to
be. Are you going to be the person who
uh has put so much thought and diligence
in it that you can lay it out and walk
away
and just say this is this is what it is
or are you going to have some level of
involvement and if so, how much is that
going to be and you know, to what
capacity?
Um you need to think a lot about the
legal implications.
You need to think a lot about uh
just the logistics of hiding a treasure.
It It sounds simple on page,
but when you actually go and
and execute it, uh it's it can be a lot
harder than it sounds. And I think
especially, you know, when it gets to a
certain value or above,
uh people will go to great lengths to
try and uh
figure out where you were, when you were
there and um
you know, reverse engineer things. And
so,
you know, to to even to travel
in the United States truly anonymously
and privately is a massive feat.
There are so many hurdles
uh
and so,
if you're serious about it, um
there are many sacrifices that are
necessary in order to ensure that
privacy and anonymity while you
you execute and hide it. Uh
I could go on for quite a long time,
sorry. But there there there are a lot
of things that um
you need to consider. And and it's also
just the the post-find
experience, you know, I I There are I
kind of see these high-level stages to a
treasure hunt. There's
there's the um the planning stage.
There's the execution stage of hiding,
but the world doesn't know it yet. And
then there's the announcement.
Then there is the actual treasure hunt
itself and then there is post-find.
And I think, you know, if you look at
most of the modern treasure hunts,
the biggest risk is typically
a post-find.
Um and so, I think there are just a lot
of lessons to learn there. I actually
At some point I wrote a I wrote a paper
about
a theory of of treasure hunting and how
um you could actually put some
and some kind of boring mathematical
constructs in place in order to make it
better.
Uh I haven't released it yet. I actually
at some point I I ended up sending it
into a journal, but I don't I don't know
if they've even reviewed it yet or
something. Maybe at some point I'll put
it on the website or something. I just I
didn't want to put it in the book
because I felt like
you know, I mean, it it might be a
little
overwhelming for for some people and
it's it's not very approachable. It's
more of like a you know, a a core
um research paper
and uh a lot of you know, technical
terms and boring mumbo jumbo in it. So,
I might I might publish it at some
point, but um
there's a lot to consider. We'll say
that.
Well, if you ever need anybody to review
it for errata, please send it to me.
>> Yeah,
maybe I'll do that.
>> [laughter]
>> All right, I'm at my last question and
I've made it before our 1-hour time
limit. I'm very grateful for that, but I
do want to spend a couple of minutes
talking about
the ASI because you asked about it. Last
question.
If there is one thing you hope searchers
take away from this experience
regardless of outcome,
what is it?
The experience of the interview? No, the
experience of your treasure hunt. Oh. If
there is one thing you hope searchers
take away from the treasure hunt
experience regardless of outcome,
what is it?
I think that if you've been out
searching,
you know, you you've had an adventure
and you reflect on it,
uh
uh don't
don't lose that feeling, you know,
whether it's wonder or captivation or
maybe something that you might have lost
from your youth.
Um
that's a pretty powerful thing and I
think the world needs more of that. And
so, I would urge people to
uh remind themselves how that how they
felt
in that setting, you know, on the verge
of a great discovery and
think about how maybe you can contribute
to the world to give people
um something in return that
might be similar to to that experience
because it was so valuable to you.
I remember doing a an AGK show uh
mid-treasure hunt probably around 2017,
2018 on filling up a 5-gallon bucket
with water and saying explaining to
people this is how heavy
Forrest claims his treasure weighs and
why he had to make two trips. How many
gallon 5-gallon buckets does your
treasure weigh?
>> [laughter]
>> We'd have to do a little off-the-cuff
math here, but uh
you know, I I the entirety of the
treasure is about I think I mentioned 60
lb.
Uh so, it's you know, it's not
it's not light and it's certainly more
than one 5-gallon bucket, so
>> if it's 60 lb, it is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
All right, I'm at my last question and
I've made it before our 1 hour time
limit. I'm very grateful for that, but I
do want to spend a couple of minutes
talking about uh
that you had seen our show on the AGK
solve ASI AGK solvability index and you
had some comments on it and I'd love to
hear those comments.
Yeah, I mean, first off I thought that
was a remarkable idea. I really like the
concept of having some sort of scoring
or index system that helps guide people
toward a treasure hunt that would make
sense for them and and you know, whether
it's physical limitations or just their
interests in general. Uh that's really
cool. Um
and I think the
uh I think one aspect of that index was
you know, how much time are you spending
boots on the ground and and being out
there. And I
that's the part that I I actually I
don't know
enough about John Collins' Black's
treasure to say
um how much time he truly expects you to
be
in the wilderness and and and searching
for it. Um
but I think that's kind of an
to my uncertain [clears throat]
knowledge, that might be an unanswered
question
for um
uh for his treasure hunts. And for mine,
it's um
I mean, there certainly is a component
of being boots on the ground,
uh but
not to the point of doing the drudgery
of of
um grid searching or anything like that.
And so,
yeah, I mean, I think that every
treasure hunt creator has to have that
balance. Like, you know, is it
I think the only way you could truly
have an armchair treasure hunt I guess
would be, you know, you solve something
and you come up with an answer where you
don't leave your armchair or you don't
leave it until uh
you know, you you have say an exact GPS
coordinate. Those are probably
uh like at one extreme, you know, in
terms of how much time you're going to
spend outdoors versus
you know, Forrest, which was actually a
lot of outdoor time. And so, I like to
think that mine
uh
uh lands more in the middle
or maybe uh
maybe even slightly more
armchair, not all the way. I mean, you
need to be out in the woods. Uh
But yeah, I'd love I'd love to see how
the index
computes uh if you have the opportunity
to talk to JCB and and kind of get some
clarity there
and and see what the index says. I'd I'd
be curious to see. I'm actually going to
use it as a reason to try and convince
him to come on the program so we can
have a very similar interview, you know,
the time program. Yeah. I've got some
questions for him, too. But it it piqued
my curiosity from an analyst's
perspective. I'm sure it piques yours
from the engineering perspective because
it it kind of travels up that uh that
little side of our our brain. So
>> Well, that's a great idea. I think
whoever um who hasn't seen the show, I I
urge [clears throat] you to go and see
Toby's show about the the ASI cuz I
think it's a a neat rubric for
treasure hunts.
So, uh before I let you go, I want to
say thank you very much for joining me
tonight and I I hope that you'll stay
just long enough so that we can uh close
out the show. There are a couple of
things I want to say before I go.
Um one is uh again, for those of you
that have um
super chatted uh this program, I'm very
grateful for that and I'm sorry I didn't
have the time or the partner necessary
to say thank you as they were doing
that, but I want you to know that I'm
grateful. That's the first money
uh we have earned since we shut down
back in 2020 because I just recently
became monetized again. So, thank you
very much for that. The second thing is
I am developing an application called
Field Notes Pro. It's designed uh it
started to design as uh for the treasure
hunter, but then I realized it could
work for anybody from an archaeologist
to a surveyor to a treasure hunter. And
I'm looking for five or 10 people with
um
And Android phones and five or 10 people
with uh
um
um
iPhones, smartphone uh uh
Apple phones who can uh test it for me
over about uh 2 week to 1 month period.
And if you're interested, please send an
email to a gypsy's kiss at gmail.com.
You'll see it up in the scroll bar uh up
above. Any last words before we close
out uh the session, Justin?
No, I just I appreciate your time, Toby,
and thanks for having me on the show.
I'm grateful. I'm very grateful that you
agreed to join me tonight and I hope um
the questions uh did justice to um your
treasure hunt and you as an individual
because I have a great deal respect for
you. And I can't tell you how pleased I
was when I saw that you had I knew it
was going to be when I saw that you had
created a treasure hunt, I knew how good
it was going to be.
Uh because I know what you had you what
you personally could do with it. So,
thanks very much. Well, don't let it
lose sound.
>> [laughter]
>> I'm sure it's going to be fine. For
those of you that joined us tonight, I
hope you got out of the show what you
wanted. Uh we did our best to make sure
it was a good and thoughtful
conversation and I think that's easy
when you have a guest like Justin.
Um we're going to close out here and I
expect that some at some point we'll
probably publish a transcript so that
you have access to that as uh well. All
right?
Um Justin, stay through the outro and um
and we can say our good nights, okay?
Sounds great. Good night, you all.
Thanks for joining us tonight. I really
appreciate it.
Thanks for joining us for this
conversation with Justin Posey.
Tonight wasn't about answers or
shortcuts. It was about understanding
the intent, care, and responsibility
that go into creating a modern treasure
hunt.
As always
the meaning of a hunt isn't just in
what's found
but in how it's experienced and shared.
If you found value in this discussion,
please like, subscribe, and share. And
if you're part of the hunt, engage
thoughtfully, search responsibly, and
respect the process.
I'm Erica Ray. I'll see you on the
trail.
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