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>> So welcome everybody. Tonight we have a
very special guest. Although I think all
of our guests are very special, but
tonight I think you may
know who he is. He is the author of um
Beyond the Maps Edge and also
um the creator of of the uh treasure
hunt. Um and you can find him on trea-
treasure.quest
and he also is on Golden Greed. So
welcome Justin.
Thank you. I appreciate you guys having
me on the show. Yeah, we appreciate you
on here and um
for our regular viewers you probably are
noticing something different. Laura is
sitting next to me.
Uh we had some technical difficulties,
so bear with us.
But the show must go on. So
>> The show must go on.
So um Laura's going to sort of kick this
one off and then um then I'll be joining
her. So Laura, take it away. Yeah,
thanks so much Eric and Justin. We're so
excited to have some time to spend with
you tonight. Um
and to dive into your journey and your
story and your book and the impact that
it's had on all of us. So so thanks for
coming on. Well, it was a delight to
meet you guys in Vegas and I'm I'm happy
to be on the show. Yeah, yeah, it was so
fun to meet you in person first. That is
not often the case when we're talking
with someone. But so admittedly I'm
going to confess that I picked up your
book for the first time about a week and
a half ago.
And so we have been very focused on TTI
for you know almost a well a little over
a year now. And so while I was certainly
aware we had watched Golden greed we I
hadn't yet dug into your book. It was
sitting on our shelf.
And
my
admiration for your writing my
experience in the book has been
absolutely incredible. Like your way
with words blew my mind. I'm a reader. I
love I love research. I love digging in.
I love the artistry of words and I have
to say
well well done. Like
extremely well done with
the writing. I mean that's very kind of
you to say. It would have been far worse
off had it not been for my editor
extraordinaire Matt DeMoss. But I
appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you.
>> Yeah, well you know, it's the stories
number one. But it is also the crafting
of the words and I would imagine
although you had an editor much of this
came from you. I took down a number of
my favorite quotes and I was hoping we
could use these as a springboard to talk
a little bit about your story if you
don't mind.
That sounds like a great plan. Okay,
because initially here's one that stuck
with me.
Anyone who can talk about an oil change
and use je ne sais quoi in the same
paragraph?
Like what's with that Justin?
>> [laughter]
>> Well, you know, it's kind of like
putting lipstick on a pig. I just
for whatever reason I just that story
had had had stuck out in my mind for a
number of years and I
I I
you know, I think everybody has stories
in their life that are worth telling and
I encourage everybody at some point. I
think everyone should try and write a
bit of a memoir. It's just a very
interesting experience to to undertake.
But yeah, for that story in particular,
you know, it's a
only so much you can do with it, but
[laughter]
appreciate that. It was an incredible
little tale. Every single one of these
vignettes, I mean the way that you
painted your chara what I, you know,
maybe say as characters but really your
family members, your friends, the people
who've had an influence on your life,
your mom, your dad, your grandparents.
My goodness, what a beautiful tribute to
their lives as well.
So, you know, a couple of the chapters
that had quotes that literally I was
laughing out loud every few minutes. Um,
the Gracie Grail was a great one, I
thought. Um,
you were talking about how a castle
eloped with a yard sale. This place that
looked like they've been arranged by a
caffeinated raccoon who watched one too
many episodes of Antiques Roadshow. It's
brilliant. It's brilliant. Well, if
you've ever been to Gracie's, you'd
understand. It is It is It is quite the
scene. Yeah. And you know, I I I think
what I appreciate most about Gracie's is
how little it's changed. It does feel
like it's just stuck in time. Yeah.
Almost to a point where it's uncanny. I
I I I really enjoy spending time there
and it's Every time I go, I find a
a different nook or cranny to explore
that I just didn't even realize was
there before. Yeah.
So, Gracie's, you know, set is the
setting for one of these chapters. But
one of the things that stuck with me
about Gracie's in particular is we talk
about them a map, right? A map that
influence
kind of your perspectives, I think, on
treasure hunting. You said, "When I
unfold the map now, I understand what
guided the cartographer's trembling
hand, the same force that filled
Gracie's shelves, the same fever that
keeps me hunting, this desperate belief
that we can somehow catch time in a
collected net of things."
And I love that. So, talk to me a bit
about
I mean, we we read through your story,
the genesis of treasure hunting way back
when you're a kid and how that all
evolved.
And then throughout kind of your growth,
your story,
it becomes
a tale of humanity, of the lives lived,
the people that you intersect with, the
experiences. And I think that's one of
the things I love about that quote is we
see it getting bigger than
individual stories. We see the thread
pulling through all of it. Was that your
hope as you set out to write this book
that we could all enjoy? I mean, it's so
much more than a treasure hunt. The
treasure, you know, he's going to hit
that, is an incredible part, but this is
such a
a wonderful legacy.
>> [snorts]
>> You know, it's really interesting that
you put it this way. I mean, I I I've
had a lot of people write to me and I've
spoken with a lot of people that have
been enjoyed the book. Uh
but, I don't think anyone
uh has articulated it quite the way that
you had. And that's actually precisely
what I had in mind. So, I I I appreciate
the observation. You know, that that
quote in particular, I think
my goal was to resonate with a fellow
collector. You know, and I I think the
collectors of the world would say that
uh
you know, it's root that is that is
part of the impetus for collecting is is
to try and
uh freeze time and to
to be a part of history at at a whole
different level than just reading about
it.
Uh and I think that tangible aspect
really strikes a chord with with so many
people and
uh I have to wonder if that maybe is the
basis of a lot of uh
uh maybe people that become hoarders
over time is kind of this uh
um maybe going into obsessive territory
about trying to
uh
yeah, freeze time. It's an interesting
concept to me, but yeah, thank you.
Yeah. Yeah, [clears throat] absolutely.
So, obsessing, because you said it, I'm
going to ask. You have this incredible
personality that dials in on a focus and
is unrelenting to let go of it from my
observation from the book. You set your
mind to something and you are full on
into it. Um and we see that throughout
your you know, your growing up years and
then
>> base. Yeah. And then
>> [laughter]
>> Which I may talk may or may not talk
about later. Right. Um so, talk to me
about you know, how
how that has served you well and for
those of us who tend to do that
equally
how sometimes maybe you have to try to
step back from it.
Yeah, I think maybe a a a software
developer would say they're not sure if
this is a feature or a bug, but it is a
a core part of my identity um
and I've just found time and again that
there are certain topics that tend to
draw me in and everything else just kind
of becomes noise that I tune out and
you know, most recently it's actually
been with the the company that I started
and I just I felt like there was a a
need to be met there and here I am. So,
it's just it's I think it's something
that has
uh
been ingrained in me from a very young
age and there's probably a couple
different reasons for that. One is
maybe there's a genetic component to it,
I don't know, uh but certainly
environment. I you know, all the the
strong figures in my life have been
incredibly hard workers.
Uh and it just
it's strange to think because
you know, when I was very young I
thought, "Wow, my my dad is the hardest
worker I've ever known."
Uh but the more I got to go know my my
grandparents, it's like, "Wow, those are
the those they work even harder." And
it's so I just it's like this strange
combination. I have to wonder like three
generations back. Gosh, I can't imagine,
but
uh I like to think that maybe they
worked even harder than that. So, it
just
um probably something that was instilled
in me from a a pretty young age. Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, I can't help but ask
and think to myself as I'm reading
through the chapters,
what is hidden amongst these stories
that I need to be taking note of if I
want to be successful in the hunt. Now,
you know, I think there's an approach
and people have likely asked you this
before, but I'm again coming into it a
little bit of a blank slate. Um you
know, we know that the poem which Eric
will likely talk about in a little while
is critical, but as we're thinking about
the narrative
and some of the things that you're
talking about throughout that, should we
be tuning into
anything in particular? I don't want you
to give me clues cuz we are going to
figure it out on our own, but is that a
critical part of coming to an
understanding of you and this hunt?
Uh I think it is true to say that there
are certain
uh
whether you you it themes or
frequencies or
uh
certain aspects that I think are
are very key to the treasure hunt. Mhm.
Uh of course I can't call them out
specifically, but
>> Right.
I think um I think you guys are having
some good thoughts.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love
that you say rules are merely starting
points of negotiation
and a well-placed loophole is worth its
weight in weeples, right? That was a
great story, by the way. Yes, that was
amazing story. And And you
touch on periodically kind of this
having to be willing to go
and to find a way around, you know, to
think outside of the boundaries.
Um do you feel like that is a
a trait that's necessary for someone to
be a successful treasure hunter?
Well, I have to be a little little
cautious in this answer. So, my mom
always said I'd make a great attorney.
Um [laughter]
I
I don't know, I think there's
[clears throat] there's a saying about
this when
you know, uh
arguing with an attorney is like
wrestling with a pig. After the first
hour, you start to realize the pig likes
it. Uh I I like the act of arguing. I
think it's um
I think it's really interesting. Not
that I'm, you know, just I'm
an aggressive or argumentative person,
but I just I like the merits of an
argument in order to uncover deeper
truths. Um
Now, I'm certainly by no means saying
that people need to go and break the law
or anything like that in order to
uh to find the treasure, but uh I think
I thinking outside of the box is
is valuable.
Yeah. Yeah, and I was certainly not
inferring we are breaking the law, nor
doing anything dangerous. I mean,
because that is a risk, right? When
you're putting a hunt out there for
people, asking people to get out into
the wilderness and be searching.
Um a risk that people won't be cautious
and and follow the guidance that you've
given. Certainly you having a great
familiar familiarity with the outdoors
and still having these bear encounters
that actually have me terrified about
going out.
>> [laughter]
>> Well, that's exactly that's it.
So, talk to me about your um
your guidance about safety.
And how it you know
as you were putting your hunt together
did that strike you in a certain way
that you might be encouraging people to
go out and do things that I mean, we
know with Forrest Fenn's there was
tragedy, right?
Now, before you answer that, remember
you're talking to a safety certified
safety professional here.
And I do applaud the fact that you did
put all these you know, guidelines in
there or not
more directives, right? Because um you
know, managing people in a
um controlled environment in the
workplaces is a can can be challenging
enough.
But when you put things out to the world
it's even um harder as we saw during the
pandemic you know, so to speak, right?
So, how how was that you know
Yeah, um you know, I think Forrest
treasure hunt was a a good case study.
And
I appreciated it in the sense that I
think growing up in the outdoors and and
having that experience often times
can lead you to take
take for granted
what a lot of people that haven't had
that experience, uh how they experience
it. So, I think it's so important to to
keep that in mind when you're you're
putting together something like a
treasure hunt where you're encouraging
people to do what might be uncomfortable
things for them.
And education is such a foundational
component of that.
And you know, I I dedicated I think
pretty much a full chapter in the book
to talk about the things that can go
wrong
and and to kind of use it as a a guide
or a lesson for people to understand
that you need to be prepared for a lot
of different things in the wilderness
because it is not
forgiving.
And
you know, the weather changes on a dime.
You get excited, you might go further
than you planned on going and over
preparation really is the name of the
game. And I think the biggest the
biggest
I wouldn't call it wisdom by any means,
but the
the biggest tidbit of information that I
could provide is if you're uncomfortable
with the wilderness, go with somebody
that is comfortable. That has spent a
lot of time doing these outdoor
activities.
It's worth it's worth your time and
effort to find up somebody like that
because it's a great mentor and it's a
good checks and balances system. I mean,
I know that there are people that are
searching for the treasure that have
gone out solo.
And that's okay,
but that's just another case where you
need to be even more prepared than you
would with a partner.
So, you know, a lifeline is is really
critical in these situations.
Yeah, because we know we've been boots
on the ground for for John's
treasure going on and it's a whole
different world when you get out there.
You know, as soon as you step into the
the woods,
you know,
there's a lot of lot of things that
could go wrong even on a relatively I
mean, there there is no routine, you
know,
hike or anything. You you always have
something to worry about, whether it be
you know, wildlife or or even slipping
on a rock or or something like that. Cuz
you're out there open, you know, or
you're out far away from any type More
likely than not, you won't have cell
service and if something happens and
you're a mile or two out there, um you
know, it could it could be pretty dicey.
It's true and you see these stories of
people like they'll just wander off, you
know, and not more than 100 ft off say
the Appalachian Trail and
it's really easy to get turned around
out there and it can have dire
consequences. I mean, I've I've
embarrassed myself plenty of times. I've
you know, I I'd
go out to an area and say, you know,
with my
uh vehicle and park it somewhere and I
wouldn't go very far, turn around and
like, where did I park? And you know, it
takes some time to track it down and you
can actually be remarkably close and not
even realize it. So, it's it's a it's a
real danger and you can't always rely on
on cell service to save you. Yeah.
>> Yeah, that's a good point. That is the
truth.
Um so, I have a couple two more topics,
I think, or a couple more quotes that I
wanted to hit and then I'm going to turn
it over to Eric for some of his content.
But, um in the chapter called or in the
section called The Treasure, you say,
"The ultimate puzzle I discovered wasn't
one to be solved with a map or decoder
ring, but with an open heart
and willingness to venture into the
unknown, embracing the journey for its
own sake with all its twists, turns, and
the inevitable dead ends." Um which I
thought was very poignant,
for sure.
And it made me curious about your
experience as a hunter, a treasure
hunter versus your experience as the
creator of the hunt and now sitting back
and kind of observing the hunt and kind
of
how that plays out in terms of that
kind of deeper existential connection
that you're referring to here I think.
I think the best treasure hunt creators
come from people that were treasure
hunters themselves. It's I really think
you have to have that that in-depth full
arc experience beginning to end of a
treasure hunt
in order to really
pull off something that that makes sense
for for people to search for.
Uh and I I certainly had that
experience. I'm certainly by no means a
treasure hunt creator expert. Uh I don't
know if there is such a thing. Yeah. I
such a strange term to me. I don't
really
identify as a creator per se. I mean, I
guess that is the correct term, but
at this point I think I'm
I'm fairly convinced I make a much
better treasure hunter than than
treasure hunt creator. Right. [laughter]
Mainly because I mean it's it's probably
fair to say I I enjoy the hunting a
little bit more than the uh than the
hiding. Uh
but yeah, I mean I I
I don't know. I I'm trying to think
about how I could expand on this. I At
its core it's um
um
what I wanted to impart
on
uh into people is that um
I had I had an experience and
I hope that they get even a fraction of
the experience that I had because that
alone I think is
is worth it to me and I and I hope it's
worth it to them as well. Yeah. Yeah.
That's fantastic. All right, my last
thing on my list that I really wanted to
talk about was Tucker
because
A I cried at the end. We are such dog
people and um Hence our logo. Yeah.
Um that's our dog Biscuit
Who is right here at my feet. And
um
You know, you talk in a couple different
places about the connection that you
guys had. Um as we drove home, the
landscape blurring past our windows, I
couldn't shake the feeling that we
stumbled upon the edge of something
vast. It wasn't about the bronze
or even the feat of canine olfactory
prowess. It was about communication,
trust, and that peculiar alchemy that
occurs when two species come together in
pursuit of a shared goal.
And so, I loved that integration of him
into your hunt and that experience you
had together.
Um so,
I just want to hear more because I I'm
just not ready to let him go out of the
story in my mind yet because I was right
there. He was with you for some time,
hm? How long did you have Tucker?
Yeah, I got Tucker, I think it was in
2012, and he was really a core part of
the search experience from from day one.
You know, he
he had more responsibility, if you will,
over time, you know, by virtue of his
training and
and I think him becoming more invested
in it in his own way.
Uh but yeah, I look back on that, and I
I honestly cannot say who had a better
time
out searching, me or him. Uh and I think
that's that's the way it should be.
Uh
I yeah, I'm a dog person through and
through, and [clears throat] uh
uh I feel like there's a lot of dogs in
in households out there that could
probably use more adventure themselves.
And so, I like to think that this is um
something that's available for all forms
of life,
not just the humans. Yeah, right? Yeah.
Have you found a new friend that has
come into your world?
Uh no, I am
So, we I I have a cat. His name is is
Woody and he's he's a good around the
house companion, you know, he likes to
hang out on the porch and so on. Uh
but in terms of like, you know, an
outdoor adventure partner
I think it it takes time you know, to
find the
find the right fit and
uh yeah, the right the right time.
So, on that note, if we were hunting
with Biscuit our dog and he loves to
come on the trails with us. He has He is
a scent hound and he cannot let go of
the scent. Um would and we were looking
for your particular treasure, would we
be able to bring him with us? Is it in
an accessible to dogs place?
Uh that's
uh that's been a question posed a number
of times. Um
>> [clears throat]
>> So, the reason I generally hesitate to
answer these types of questions is just
general volatility. Like if rules change
in the future, people look back on this
and say, "Well, you said it at this
time." and it's like, "Well, it was true
right now, but things can change."
Um you know, but to the best of of my
knowledge, there shouldn't be
uh
anything that should preclude a canine
companion from from joining you on the
treasure hunt. All right. Thank you for
sharing that.
>> Yeah, that's great because uh we have
run into instances where there's no dogs
allowed on different trails and
we just love taking them and if we can
we and and we can drive the distance,
you know, I think our limit's usually up
to like 10 hours just for the sake of
time and and and things like that. We do
like taking them, but
you know, if we take a longer vacation,
we have the longer trips with them, you
know, and just found a place to stay
that that accepted dogs cuz he loves
I think our first boots on the ground,
you know, he he was still a pup and he
really did well. So.
Yeah, it's I I
I I think dogs can enhance the journey
in in so many ways. I mean, and of
course there's
as you're mentioning like a certain
level of responsibility when you get out
there with safety with animals, too. Uh
I mean, especially if you have something
like a bear encounter. Um
You know,
I like to think that most people know
their dogs pretty well, but there are
certain personalities that can, you
know, take off off after a rabbit, never
look back.
So, yeah, I mean, I think
that is another thing to consider as you
bring your your pets out into the
wilderness is safety for them as well.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we always keep
him on leash just for that fact.
>> We don't trust him yet. [clears throat]
The nose He's not quite that old. He's
not yet a year, so. You know, I think I
actually built an insecurity into Tucker
in retrospect, and then I I think it
really started when
I mean, when he was very young, I'd take
him out on the trails in Washington
state, and
um
I we would just play this hide-and-seek
game, and he really took to that. But it
also, I think in a way,
it wasn't me looking after him, it was
him looking after me because he'd
wonder, "When am I going to go hide?"
And so, it was you know, in retrospect,
maybe it sounds a little diabolical, but
he uh you know, I think it was a bit of
an insecurity where he really wanted to
keep tabs on me cuz he knew that I could
go and hide at any point, and he'd have
to track me down. So, he he liked that
game a lot, and I think that kind of
pulled double-duty in the sense that he
was more responsible.
Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's
great. Unintended outcome, maybe, but it
worked. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, we've
started talking about the hunt. Do you
want to kind of switch gears to that
rather than biography per se?
>> Yeah, I would I had some, you know,
things that
you know, interest me that I would like
to know. You know, you
You obviously you started out as
treasure
right? I mean you you you named it in
your book. You were
going out to the missile bases, almost
getting put in the
in the hole because you wandered off.
I thought was brilliant by the way. I
probably wouldn't have the courage to
pull that off, so kudos to you.
There's a There's a fine line between
courage and stupidity, so I don't know
where I lie on that spectrum.
>> [laughter]
>> But you know, that treasure hunter to
treasure designer transition, you know,
we we sort of talked about that earlier.
You know, what How did that How did that
process sort of come to fruition? At
what point did you make that decision
that I am I'm going to hide a treasure
after this?
Yeah, I mean I I I know I'm not alone in
this regard in the sense that there were
many people searching for Forrest's
treasure who felt that if they found it,
they would want to
you know, pay it forward in some way and
and re-hide it or at least a portion of
it.
And I was I was one of those people.
Uh but it just it was just pretty wild
how it all came together at the end. And
I think probably more than anything it
was just sheer willpower in order to
make it work.
Um
I'm trying to recall the exact moment
where I solidified this thinking and I
I think it was when I think it was in
the maybe the only
conversation over the
I guess I had a few conversations over
the phone with with Jack Stuef, the the
the Forrest Fenn treasure finder. Uh but
it was in one of those conversations
where
it really solidified it for me. And it's
actually kind of strange now that I look
back on it, but it was something he said
that struck
me.
And
it was that he is not a collector
and he had no interest in
the physical treasure. You know, it was
it was
it was monetary which I can understand.
Uh
but a part of me it just
really got to me and I started thinking
about this and it goes back to you know,
where we were talking about Gracies and
collecting things and
I think I got worried in that moment
that maybe
gosh, is this a generational thing? Like
are we are are we trending toward more
uh you know, more transient existence
where we are not as
you know, fettered with with physical
items or what is this? You know, cuz it
was so foreign to me so I'm very much
the opposite.
And so I guess maybe a part of it was
uh
trying to freeze time in my own way and
say that there is
there's something out there worth
searching for.
Uh
and now I mean in terms of dates I don't
recall I'm actually really bad with
dates but it was it was during
negotiations where I was talking about
buying the full Fenn treasure. Yeah.
Yeah, no I find it odd that
you know, somebody would get into
treasure hunting just for the money and
I know that
at first it might sound well, why else
would you know,
holistically would sound like that but
although we all think we would get it
and by confirmation of him getting it it
it did work out for him but that is not
the
the norm.
You know, I mean honestly you probably
would have a greater chance at you know,
gambling or or a lottery or something
like that. I mean
not to say that you can't find it and it
shouldn't but I guess my what my point
is that you know, to to us at least cuz
we're new to this. I mean yeah, when I
was a kid, I would
I grew up by the woods. Although, the
woods weren't that vast, to me it was.
And, you know, finding, you know, a
you know, abandoned car that was
stripped and burnt out in the woods was
like finding a pirate ship that was, you
know, washed upon the shore.
You know, and, you know, so so that
component was was always there.
So,
you know, and also through this whole
experience,
um you know,
back up a little bit. What I What I
generally tell people is that
you know, we If you were to find a
treasure, that would be great. You would
have the monetary aspect of it.
And, um and it would be exciting, but
that will sort of fade out. Whether the
the excitement of it will fade out.
And, you'll eventually spend it, um you
know, depending on the person.
And then it is gone. Whereas,
you know, the experiences we felt along
the way, and this is why we continue to
pursue it and and
now doing your stuff as well,
is is not only the friendships you meet,
but
how it
sort of changes the trajectory of of
your path. I mean,
I'll be 53 this year, and
you know, I would never have thought my
life would have taken this drastic of a
direction or change.
Now, I mean,
in my whole life, this is probably the
one of the biggest influences that it's
been on me.
Um you know, so to
to sort of minimize it by saying, "Well,
I'm just doing it for the treasure." I
mean,
you know, it's sort of like planning
your retirement when you're 10, right?
Um you may think you want to be a
professional video game player, uh
Pac-Man or whatever, but you know,
that's your 10-year-old brain saying it,
right? And then when you get older and
I don't know. Anyway.
>> So, the joy in the journey and his where
you're going. The joy in the journey.
So, I I would love to hear a bit more
for
from you about what was your motivation.
So, we know that his was, man, I'm going
to get a payout if I find this. What was
your initial motivation for getting into
the Forrest Fenn hunt?
I I I think a a a well-constructed
treasure hunt is is is the encapsulation
of dreams and hopes. And
it is something that is
um rare in today's world. Uh
and so for me
I think it's different for each person.
And for me, it was
just this
a very perfect storm or catalyst of all
these components coming together. I
mean,
certainly you can't ignore the monetary
aspect. That might be, you know, the the
initial catalyst for some people.
Um but I think for many it it becomes
more and they don't realize it in the
beginning.
Uh but uh it does.
And and by more, I mean, for me, it was
it was a grand puzzle.
It was um
a true challenge that
is the intersection between mind and
body.
Uh you really get that full
featured experience where you're
engaging the mind while you're out
searching physically
and and truly thinking about your
surroundings as opposed to just moving
through them. I mean, I think I some
point I mentioned this concept of uh
uh lantern vision where
you know, when you move through an
environment, it's like the lantern is
moving with you and you're just seeing
what's in your
in your vicinity. And that actually can
be uh I think that's something we lose
over time. When you're a kid and you
walk around every corner, it's new and
you're not accustomed to it and your
mind doesn't have that, uh,
um,
that that that mold kind of built in
where you just filter.
And the lack of filtering is is such an
interesting way to look at the world and
I'm sure, you know, if you probably took
a bunch of mushrooms or something, you'd
probably get the same effect, but
uh, I like to think that uh, treasure
hunting can can kind of uh, compete with
that in the sense that it it forces you
to look at the world differently. And I
think there's a lot of power behind
that.
Yeah, I think I think it strips the
filters that we get when we become an
adult and have to put some of those
filters on whether be our job or
whatever like that.
Right.
>> and it and and then we can't see uh, the
things that uh, once inspired us and and
you know, as as when we're younger.
That's a great way of putting it.
Completely agree.
>> [laughter]
>> So when when you started this then, so
obviously this this was a big change for
you. You went from treasure hunter to
again, treasure creator. You know, did
that Were there any components of that
that really
um, surprised you? Like maybe um, the
preparation of the logistics of it,
putting things together, the legal
aspect, things like that.
You know, I I spent the better part of
of a decade in my career at the Walt
Disney Company and a core part of that
tenure was
crafting an experience for guests, a
story. And I think anyone could go and
make a ride.
Um, but to create an environment that
surrounds that ride and something that
tells a story, I think is really the key
to
at least historically to the Walt Disney
Company's success.
And so I wanted to have
that feeling about the treasure hunt.
Where it's not just oh, you go and get
it. Like there's
there's something more to it.
Um
so that was that was a piece of it. Um
but there's always surprises along the
way.
I mean it is the modern era. It's not as
romantic as going and
you know, putting a
treasure somewhere on the ground and
walking away.
Um it's just not the world we live in.
So
there were certainly a lot of legal
aspects and so on to consider.
Uh but I'm I'm trying to think back on
it to say what was the most surprising
to me. Well, one was
writing a book is hard.
>> [laughter]
>> I'll leave that to the professionals
moving forward cuz
I was you know, I mean there were some
chapters that I think went went together
pretty quickly but others that took
uh
an extraordinary amount of time.
And uh
a lot of iterating.
And so it's I I just I do not envy uh
those writers that have to sit there day
in and day out and and and crank
something out. I mean it's it's a real
gift.
Uh so that one was surprising to me. I
guess going in I thought oh, I can you
know, I can crank out a book, you know,
but it's it's hard. And then uh the
other thing that was probably
probably difficult was just kind of
coordination to make sure that
everything goes as smoothly as you as
you hope it will. And there's just so
many aspects to that whether it's, you
know, logistics or supply chain for for
books. I mean even something as as
seemingly simple as like well, you know,
what publishing path do I take
when you create a book can have a
tremendous impact on uh first
impressions. Uh you know, you've seen uh
some treasure hunts where oh my gosh,
there's a you know, supply chain
interruption right away and then people
are waiting months for a book.
Uh, mine certainly doesn't arrive
overnight, but generally speaking it's
been a pretty steady supply chain.
Uh, but those things are not
are not easy. Uh,
and actually some of the technology
components were a little little
challenging too. For instance, um,
gosh, what was it? I
I wanted to cater toward independent
booksellers.
But, uh, I kind of wanted to have my
cake and eat it, too. I wanted to cater
to them,
but also not create a bottleneck where,
uh, you know, they become the the supply
chain pinch point.
Uh, and I actually wanted to, uh, cut
out the big box guys entirely, like
Amazon and all that. And so,
>> Good for you. Uh, yeah, that's actually
what I did initially was, you know, the
way to get to the book was actually uh,
side-stepping all those guys.
And it actually meant, you know, I had
to
I had to create, you know, a whole like
payment platform and all sorts of
components, you know, basically redoing
what AW or Amazon does, which was
a little ambitious. And it worked okay.
It's just, um, it's a lot to manage and
I just didn't have the time. And so, at
the end of the day it was, uh, more of a
compromise that I had to make there, but
yeah, I mean, I I could probably talk
about that. Sorry to bore you guys. I
mean, I could probably talk about it for
days. There's just a lot of interesting
things that come up that you just take
for granted, yeah. Yeah. So, you know,
um,
excuse me.
So, when you, um,
where was I going with this?
Um,
gosh, I lost my train of thought now.
Yeah, I was going to jump in with a
question.
>> [laughter]
>> No, no, not only did you, you know, you
you said creating a book is hard. I'm
sorry about that.
Um, I'm I'm off kilter a little bit
because you're sitting right by me. I
am.
>> [laughter]
>> You know, You know, you know, not only
creating a book is but creating a
treasure book, right? So, it's one thing
to sit down and you're writing
you know, uh a fictional story or just
some reference book, but you have to now
factor in
I got to put some clues in here.
Right? Well, you think about all the
different types of or genres of books in
the world and the scrutiny
that is given to them.
And I think I'd be hard-pressed to think
about another type of book that gets as
much scrutiny as a treasure hunt book.
Yeah. And uh
you know, I mean, I frankly, I thought I
had it pretty dialed in and very quickly
people were finding genuine mistakes.
And the you know, I was committed to
transparency through an errata page
where people could go and say, you know,
like I made an honest mistake here.
Don't waste time on this component.
Here's a correction.
And that page grew and I I
it was uh I mean, it was slightly
embarrassing for me in the sense that
it's like, well, I I mean, there were
more errors than I really wanted there
to be. I and I felt like when it kind of
started to stabilize, I put out a second
printing to to correct that stuff, but
uh yeah, you're I mean, there's a lot of
scrutiny given to treasure hunting
books, no doubt. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, so
you know,
you know, you want to design this book
for the masses, right? You wanted to
make it approachable for for a large
group of
of of people um ranging from your
extreme novice first-time treasure
hunters to
people that's been doing it for 10 or 20
years. You know, at the con, I I
Treasure Con, I got to talk to some
amazing minds that like, yeah, I've been
treasure hunting for 20 years. I'm like,
oh jeez, you know, you don't have to
talk to me.
>> [laughter]
>> I'll have you on my show, but you you
know, that thing. So, how did you
balance that level of complexity?
Because that that I'm sure had to be
difficult. Then you had to contend with
AI as you as well, right?
Yeah, maybe I'm kind of
over over playing the card around the
the Disney analogy, but
you know, it's like when you
if you're a a
a a seasoned
roller coaster rider
uh or if it's your first roller coaster
uh
the roller coaster
Disneyland and World
is unique and it has enough of like a a
story surrounding it and a feeling of
surrounding it that I think both people
have the potential to get equal joy from
that experience.
Uh and I wanted to do the same thing
with this treasure hunt where it doesn't
matter if you've been searching for
treasure your entire life or you just
you know, heard about it on Facebook one
day and just
decided to dive in. Uh I really wanted I
really wanted as much as as feasible to
have a level playing field where no one
felt like they they were at a serious
disadvantage because they just decided
to jump in last minute.
Yeah.
So, what what type of person do you do
you ever think about, you know, you you
put the treasure out there, you know,
what what type of person do you think
would would in your mind do you envision
being the one that finds this, right?
Yeah, that was a fun exercise I went
through. I actually
right before the the treasure hunt was
released. It was after I had hidden it
before the you know, the Netflix and all
that.
I
I sat down and wrote a
a a psychological profile of
the type of person that I thought might
find my treasure.
>> Interesting. Uh and I I've locked it
away Uh, and it it doesn't have any
clues or like that in it. It's more just
my thoughts around
uh, it's not very long, but you know, my
thoughts around the type of person that
would find it. So, I'm actually really
curious, you know, when this all comes
to fruition, I'd love to I'd love to
pull that out and and see how far off I
was.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah, super interesting.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're more than
welcome to come on the show and talk
about it.
>> [laughter]
>> That's an open invitation.
>> There'll be a lot of interesting
conversations we had at that point, for
sure. So, do you think that do you ever
picture yourself getting into the hunt
side again, or are you currently engaged
in any treasure hunts?
Um,
it's kind of strange, you know, like
when this Netflix thing hit and and the
you know, the
the popularity of the treasure hunt
grew,
I've actually had a lot of people come
to me to say, "Hey, would you help with
this project or that project?" Um,
and there's several on the table right
now. There's a company called uh, I
don't know, I'll probably mispronounce
it. I think it's a Swedish company,
Ocean, o c e y o n, I think.
Uh, and they actually focus more on uh,
maritime recovery of of uh, shipwrecks
and so on.
Um, they they have expressed some level
of interest and I'm you know,
conversations are ongoing. Uh, and
there's there's other people with, you
know,
domestic treasure hunts that that
they've asked for me to partake in and
you know, I kind of look at it and say,
"I I don't frankly, I don't know I'm not
qualified, you know?
I didn't find the Forrest Fenn treasure,
you know?"
Uh, Oh, you were so close, though. I
mean,
you know, it it 10 ft, 10 mi, it really
you know, it's binary.
>> [laughter]
>> It just wasn't close enough. Uh, so you
know, I just I I don't know, maybe a
little self-critical, but I look at that
situation, I kind of wonder what value I
would be able to provide, but it's
interesting to talk about it and there's
there have been a few treasure hunts
that I've I've done some light
reconnaissance for just to kind of get a
feel for it.
Uh but I haven't I haven't committed
fully to to any right now. Um and that's
mainly because I just have this
obsessive personality, and I'm really
focused on this little tech startup
thing that I'm working on right now. Uh
I suspect like once that gets to a a
certain stage, then my attention will go
elsewhere, and it'll probably be one of
those treasures. Right. Well, I would be
remiss if I didn't ask this question. In
your recreational time, I'm sure you
still enjoy hiking and things like that.
Has it ever crossed your mind, "Hey, I'm
just going to go for a hike where I hid
the treasure?"
>> [laughter]
>> Casually nonchalantly, right?
You know, it's actually changed
it has changed my daily life in a way
where I get worried like even if I'm
just out on a casual hike and I bump
into somebody, they're like, "Oh my
gosh, it must be in this area cuz I saw
him here, you know."
>> Right. That's sort of alluding Yeah.
Yeah. And so, you know, for a quite a
while, I mean, I was
pretty radical about it in the sense
that I would actually do most of my
hikes and walks and stuff in the middle
of the night, you know, cuz I didn't
want to bump into people. It's like I
don't want to sway people one way or the
other.
Uh but I've kind of reached a stage
where it's like
you know, I I
I'm still going to carry on my my
personal life, and so I'll I'll be out
hiking and fishing, and you know, if I
bump into you, awesome. I'd love to love
to chat, uh but don't read into it. You
know.
Yeah. Right. Right.
I was a
a recipient of that kind of mentality
just this week. I'm downstairs on our
treadmill doing an iFit hike uh through
I don't know, somewhere in the Pacific
Northwest, and on video, I see someone
walk past, you know, the trainer. I'm
like,
"Eric,
I think that was Justin." And so, we had
[laughter] to zoom in and be like, "Did
he Was he caught on camera on the iFit
training?" So, it So, I did look at it.
I did look at it, and I said, "Where was
this hike?" Um because um I I forgot
that um the uh the trainer's name,
but um he said she said it was in
Oregon, right? I said, "Wait a minute."
Dr. Jared someone.
>> Yeah, and I looked I looked at under
your picture, and it was it was you and
your brother or something at our
favorite spot in Oregon. I said, "Boots
on the ground. We're going to go."
We saw him on the trail somewhere around
that time. We're going to put boots on
the ground. Oh, I mean, there there've
actually been uh a startling number of
reports sent to me, you know, just
different photos and video clips saying,
"Is this you? Come on, be honest. Is
this you?" Yeah. Right.
>> Um and you know, I I I I I I I I I I
think it's a monumental undertaking, you
know, to travel privately and
anonymously in the US. Uh
>> [clears throat and snorts]
>> And so, yeah, I mean, I suppose the fact
remains maybe I just uh maybe I just
screwed up. Maybe somewhere along the
way somebody caught me somewhere on a
video or something. Uh I was extremely
cautious, but
uh mistakes happen, so who knows?
>> [clears throat]
>> So So, when you when you you you you hid
your treasure, you came back, and you're
all excited about it, and you're about
ready to announce to the world there's
your your treasure hunt, right? You
know, how was that feeling the night
before, and then
you know, subsequent weeks and months
into it, were you
waking up in the middle of the night
thinking, "Did I get contacted? Uh has
it been found yet?" I mean, that must uh
I know it would have drove me crazy.
It was an interesting time, for sure. Um
you know, mostly it was I had a pretty
had
I had a pretty extensive checklist of
things. You know, it's mostly around
making sure that people have a smooth
experience. Like the last thing I wanted
is the website to crash, you know.
Yeah. Or um you know, books to be
unavailable. And there was one hiccup
that happened. Uh I'm trying to recall
how this came together, but basically
uh I made
uh oh oh that's right. The the the book
publisher that I'm or the printer that I
worked with
uh I talked about making a a change like
in the metadata or something before the
book was released. And
and so we mutually agreed we should
change that. And the net effect of that
change, which they didn't convey to me,
was
"Oh, your book will actually be
unavailable for some amount of time
while the metadata propagates globally."
And so it was like right right before
the launch and I I couldn't believe it.
I was just like, "Oh." And so I think
there was a lot of stress on my side
mostly just because I wanted to make
sure that that the people had a a smooth
smooth experience in the beginning. Uh
but I'm thankful to say the website
didn't crash and
and um
uh you know,
very few supply chain issues. So it it
it worked out okay. But yeah, beyond
that it was just I didn't really know
what to expect. I think I had it in my
mind that it was going to be this niche
thing, you know, just
uh
you know, kind of a quirky little series
that that you know, wouldn't gain much
of any traction or anything. But it was
just kind of wild how it turned out. I
mean, it was in the
uh uh
Netflix top
five or top three or something um in
pretty much every country worldwide for
I don't know. I think it was multiple
weeks. So it got a little bonkers there
for a while. And you know, I thought I
had a good plan for responding to people
in email, but it just
kind of ran me over. I mean, it was just
thousands of emails per hour and it was
just
it was a lot.
Yeah, I can imagine.
So speaking of kind of what has happened
since the hunt launched,
um
and do you get online and kind of engage
with what people are posting posting
Discord? So I I personally, the way that
we hunt, because I am limited in my
bandwidth for some for the full
experience, I don't get online, I don't
read anyone else's commentary, I'm not
on Discord, I'm not on any of the social
media. I I keep a virgin mind to
everybody else's thoughts. So I don't
know what's going on out there, but how
do you engage? Do you read what people
are thinking or posting potential
solves? Do you just kind of silently
observe them and laugh or raise an
eyebrow or do you actually engage with
the hunters?
So yeah, I first off, your stance is
actually something of a very similar
stance that I had during the Fenn
treasure hunt. I really didn't engage. I
mean, very occasionally I'd look at the
blogs and so on, but I was pretty
reticent to
um read them cuz I felt like it would
change my thinking in a way that might
be detrimental.
Uh and you know, there's probably some
truth to that concept of groupthink and
um you know, the impact that it can
have.
Uh in fact, I think I wrote something on
LinkedIn about this the other day.
Uh
I'd have to look it up. Anyway, um
Uh so yeah, yeah, yeah, I I do keep
tabs.
I I'm just to set the record straight
because these rumors tend to spread. I
do not uh engage with hunters under any
aliases or anything like that. Yeah. Uh
I do from time to time talk to people on
Discord and so on. Uh but it's more
casual chitchat. I'm I'm never going to
go in there and drop clues or something
like that. I mean, especially in like a
private Discord or anything to that
degree. Um but I do have
Uh I do have some aliases that I use uh
purely for for ingesting information as
opposed to
putting it out there. So for instance,
if there's a large say a you know
Discord voice chat or something going
on, I might pop in and I don't want my
presence to
you know, cause a stir. And so yeah, I
might I might go in under alias just to
listen in and see what people are
thinking. It is interesting to me.
Um
I don't know. I haven't really been a I
haven't been in a position where
you know, I'm I'm I'm like laughing at
somebody's solution. To me, it's more
like
I'm like I'm rooting for people, you
know, and it's you see people with good
thoughts or somebody who's kind of you
know, thinking in the right direction
and I'm just in the background thinking
keep going, you know, keep going. But
it's just it is fun to watch in the in
the the how the mental models shift over
time and you also see see these kind of
factions that
that form in the communities that form
and it's just I actually think it's a
really intriguing
uh
I kind of a microcosm of society, you
know, this there's a lot of interesting
psychology at play that's just Yeah. I
find intriguing to observe. Yeah.
So so you know, like like Laura said,
she she isn't involved in that. I I sort
of I don't really participate much. I I
I listen to take the temperature cuz I
create videos and I want to know what
you know, people are are are are
interested in. So I like to provide
my opinions and to the best
ability to do that.
But do you think like and I think we I
think we may have an advantage with
yours only because
I haven't you know, I I'll watch some
some channels to support them and listen
to them.
You know, but I but I don't really pay
attention to what they're talking about
because I jump in from time to time and
it would just be Yeah, yeah, like where
the direction. So
you know,
with in a lot of our viewers uh would be
new to your hunt and and your hunt's
been out for almost a year now. Yeah.
You know, would would it be um
you say it to an advantage,
disadvantage, or neutral
for somebody that doesn't participate in
that? Because a lot of our viewers don't
participate in any social media. They
they would just come to a video or
something, you know.
Yeah, I I think anything that is
pertinent to the treasure hunt, I it's
important to me that there's a one-stop
shop where you're basically one click
away
uh
of anything that I've said or done that
might be relevant. And so that's through
treasure.quest. You know, just go to the
announcements page, which means you
know, after this interview here, of
course, there'll be a link to to this
interview on on treasure.quest and
additionally the the podcast that was
aired, I think, this morning. Or was it
yesterday morning? I'm a little behind.
Uh that that needs to be updated as
well. Um so,
I don't think anyone has an inherent
advantage by like I I think the Discords
and YouTubes and the
Facebooks, they're wonderful sources for
entertainment. Uh and and, you know, I
think for especially for people that
don't have another person to talk to
about the treasure hunt, it's a great
outlet. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um
but no one gets an an advantage. I mean,
I guess I
thinking through it, maybe the only way
that could play out is if
say somebody posts something somewhere
that happens to be largely correct and
then another person comes in and reads
it and it's like, "Oh, I know the next
10%," right? Yeah, right. I mean, those
things can happen. Uh so, what I would
what I would uh
advise to searchers is if you have a
a strong solution,
uh
keep in mind that it might be strong Uh
and maybe the thing to do is not to
advertise and instead go and inspect.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah, that's something I think about
with our channel cuz I mean, um, you
know, we
we generally want to be helpful for
people, especially people that are new
to it like we were and still are
relatively.
You know, and and make them feel like
they're not alone, you know.
And but but you know, but we also don't
want to mislead people as well. So it is
a fine line on that. It is.
>> It is. But now on your Netflix clues,
you know, um
are you is Netflix going to keep that up
for a while or is that are we afraid
that if it goes away we lose that or
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I
think it's it's to my uncertain
knowledge I think all Netflix original
series they keep in perpetuity. So I I I
think it will it will always be there as
long as Netflix is in business. Yeah.
Uh, unless something
really drastic happens. Uh, so I like to
think it'll stick around. Uh, I have
thought about that, you know, in
long-term, you know, what if it does go
away and I think the best that I can
muster is that the you know, the book
and the poem can stand on their own, you
know, the
the Netflix series is interesting and it
it does have some clues in the series.
Uh, but the treasure hunt can survive if
the show did not exist. Yeah. Mhm. Well,
I know we're getting close on time, but
I do want to give you a little time to
talk about Secret Summit cuz we're going
to be there and I encourage everyone of
our viewers to go. It's it's going to be
really amazing and I'm sure you could do
a better justice than me. So if you want
to take the little moment to talk about
it.
Yeah, I'm happy to. I mean, it's so Emma
and Gem of Treasure Hunters with us are
the main organizers for the event and it
is March 27th and 28th in Tucson,
Arizona. It is I think it starts at 7:00
p.m. on the 27th. It's kind of a mixer
that evening. I'm really meant to be I
think a celebration of the one year
release of Golden Greed.
I'll be there a lot of the people that
were in the series will be there.
And then you know that also the the
director and the producer
I'm still trying to convince the
director of photography too. He's
He's uh
Well, he's a little stubborn. We'll
we'll see how that goes.
Dave I'm talking about you.
So on the 28th there's really
It's a large gathering.
I really don't know how many people are
going to show up.
I think right now they're
they're converging on 500 500 attendees.
So I don't know where we'll land but
what we are trying for is a a Guinness
Book of World Records and I think the
last record was set in 2016 2017 in
Greece.
Somewhere around 1400 people and
basically what it means is
uh
the most number of people in one place
at one time that is doing a physical
treasure hunt. You know, one single
hunt.
And
Guinness has a very stringent
requirements on this that you need to
meet in order to um
to make it official and so we're I think
Emma's trying very very hard to check
all the boxes to make sure that it's a
legitimate
world record win. But of course that
means we need enough attendance. So you
know, if we get there that's great and I
as I understand it there's kind of
milestones that are being set. There's
multiple treasure hunt creators that'll
be there. Chad Burton will be there.
I hear JCB's on the fence. I would love
to see him there.
I've certainly
reached out to his team to see if they
if he'd be interested in attending. And
then there'll be a couple panels
throughout the day. I think the the
Golden Greed cast will be on a panel and
then we're doing a little panel on on
safety, you know, both on the northern
states and the southern states. Yeah.
>> and then uh Nicoleine Bohr is going to
be there. She's uh she was on Expedition
Unknown and uh Oak Island as well. Okay.
>> she's uh very into metal detecting and
conservation. So, I think she's doing a
session on metal detector usage.
Uh there's just been a lot of a lot of
people there. Uh and I think there's
there's a a pretty good lineup. So, it
should be a good time for everybody.
Yeah.
>> Who designed the hunt that's going to
happen?
How are all there? Uh I I have been
tasked with this
um this duty.
Uh I guess I should really start
thinking about that, huh?
Um
Yeah, so you know, I mean it's
in order to have this be a legitimate
treasure hunt and be in line with the
rules and regulations of Arizona and the
attorney general,
uh it is a game of skill. It is not a
game of chance.
You will not need to go off-site uh in
order to complete the treasure hunt. It
will all be within the confines of the
venue, which is the Tucson Expo Center.
Uh in terms of more details there, um
you know, in term legalities in Arizona
is very strict around, you know, what
they consider gambling and games of
chance. So, in this case, it is
unfortunately for people 21 and older.
Uh certainly anybody can come to the
event of any age, uh but for the
treasure hunt portion itself, uh there
is there is an age requirement by law.
Um and I think that's really really the
net of it. There's a lot of interesting
things to consider for a treasure hunt
in a constrained venue like this, uh
both from a, you know, just uh crowd
perspective and and technology
perspective. So, it'll be a a fun
challenge. Yeah. Yeah, well, we're
looking forward to it. And you know, I
really want to thank you for coming on.
You know, um it means a lot to us and we
you know, I'm sure our viewers and we
really appreciate it. Oh, I'm I'm happy
to be here, guys. It It such a delight
to meet you guys in Vegas and I'm I'm
looking forward to seeing you at the
summit. Great.
>> Absolutely. We'll see you then. Thank
you. Thank you.
>> Thank you so much, Justin. Good night.
Night.
>> [music]