[music]
>> Adventure's calling, treasure awaits.
Join us on a journey, let's open the
gates. Welcome to the pod where the
treasure is found. X marks the pod,
LET'S GATHER AROUND.
>> [music]
>> HEY, welcome to X marks the pod, the
podcast for treasure hunters by treasure
hunters. I'm here, boots on the ground
with Jaws Megan and a very special guest
this week. We have one of the stars of
Netflix Golden Greed and the creator of
Beyond the Map's Edge treasure hunt, the
one, the only Justin M. J Money Posey.
Welcome to X marks the pod, J Money.
Thanks for being here today.
J Money, that's a first.
>> [laughter]
>> Is that Is that good?
Happy to be here.
Well, we appreciate it. So, uh Um let's
get We're just going to jump right into
it. We were very excited to have you
here. We have a lot of questions that
were we've curated through the
community. We've sent a lot of flags up
like, "Hey, we're going to have Justin
on, tell us what you think." So, we have
a lot of good stuff here hopefully. Um
that we want to get going. So, we're
just going to roll right into it. The
the the structure today, we're going to
do about five questions each, kind of a
round robin going through. And then at
the end, if we have some time there, we
want to do some rapid fire, kind of a
yes, no. Hopefully, you'll answer some
questions, maybe not. Um you'll you'll
have that option to just go ahead and
plead no harm, no foul. Or if it's
something you want to address at Secret
Summit, then maybe we'll we'll dive into
or we'll we'll leave that for for that
for Tucson. So, all right, here we go.
Now that BTME is coming up on 1 year,
what has surprised you most about how
the hunt has unfolded?
Oh golly.
Uh I think more than anything just
how much it's grown. I I really had it
in my mind that it was going to be this
niche thing. I mean, when the
documentary first started to air, or
rather when it was first being filmed, I
don't even think there was a buyer. I
never imagined it would be on something
like
uh Netflix.
And even when it was on Netflix, I just
didn't think it was going to be as
popular as it became. So, I think more
than anything it's just the the growth
in the community and and you certainly
see all these uh for lack of a better
term subcommunities that spring up uh
that all kind of have their own uh
unique style and and uh bring their own
fun to the mix. So, it's been it's been
a lot of uh a lot of interesting things
to witness along the way.
Very good. Very good. Megan?
If you uh were a seeker for your
treasure, what question would you ask
yourself as a hunter?
Oh gosh.
Um
knowing what I know?
Mm, knowing what we know.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh I think that'd probably be a
a good question for Secret Summit.
Fair enough.
So, we have the map on the website.
If you had to rate it on a scale of 1 to
10, how important it is to have that map
to find the treasure, what would you
rate it?
Uh I'd have to put some real thought
into like a numerical rating, but I I
would say it's it's it's generally
useful uh for a couple of different
reasons.
You want to talk about those reasons?
>> [laughter]
>> Maybe another time. Okay, fair enough.
Fair enough.
Okay, um we love how much you're engaged
with the community, but do you feel
sometimes that your level of interaction
with the community is unintentionally
made BTME harder or more confusing?
Uh boy.
Yeah, I mean, there are certainly two
kind of
opposite ends of the spectrum in terms
of engagement. There's zero engagement
or maybe more like I've done.
And you know, my intent all along is to
provide additional clarity, but
uh I think the biggest risk are are
situations where I don't have time to
thoughtfully sit down and craft a
response preferably in writing.
And I think in those situations
especially, there's always the
opportunity that
I even though the intent is to provide
clarity, I probably could provide
uh the opposite and kind of muddy the
waters. Um you know, I think about over
the course of the year, coming up on a
year,
all all the different questions that
have been asked in the forums and so
forth and
you know, I'd be hard-pressed to
to think of something where
you know, I provided inaccurate
information. I think it it's all been
been accurate, uh even the off-the-cuff
stuff.
Um but there's likely been at least a
few times where
I probably would have chosen a different
wording or semantics if I were to have
spent more time crafting a real answer
as opposed to something that was off the
cuff, sort of like we're doing here. So,
that's the risky take by indulging in
in listening to me in and the uh various
um forums. Yeah. Okay. Let me let me
follow up on that real quick. Is there
anything that you would want to clarify
from other other interviews or Q&A's or
take back, perhaps?
>> [sighs]
>> No, I don't I don't I don't
think so. And I think even
I think even
just the exercise of trying to clarify
further might make things worse.
I'm not I mean, I don't know if worse is
the right word, but make it more
ambiguous. So, I'm actually pretty
pretty happy with where things stand
there. So, status quo. Okay, fair
enough.
Which part of your personality
influenced the poem the most? The part
of you who is an engineer or the part of
you who's an enthusiastic uh
explorer?
Uh I'd say the part of me
that
embraces childlike wonder the most.
So,
there's a lot of talk about the
checkpoints, so I've got a couple
questions about that for you tonight.
Uh is it something that we are going to
physically see and know that it's the
checkpoint when we get there?
Uh that's a good Secret Summit question.
>> [laughter]
>> Sorry.
No, we we kind of knew that was a risk
that we were taking today by by by
bumping up so close to Secret Summit.
So, we we totally understand. We're
we're and we're we're good. No no hard
feelings, J Money. You're good with us.
So,
Let's talk about modern tools. You know,
obviously we want this to be a more
AI-proof boots on the ground, but do you
feel like tools such as Google Earth,
AI, um etc. are helping people with the
hunt or actually leading further away
from your intended path?
I think it's a bit of both. You know,
I've certainly seen cases where
I mean, using
some of the what we consider basic
technology these days like Google Maps
can be beneficial, but also
uh
you know, I think
some people might have taken that to an
extreme to the point where you see
patterns where there are none.
Uh or I
I mean, I can think of kind of an
extreme example where uh a few people or
more than a few people have actually
sent me emails showing, you know, very
very specific um
foliage
uh shapes that that are
believed to be clues. I mean, clearly
foliage is going to change over the
course of the year uh and you know,
heaven forbid this goes on for more than
you know, years. Uh th those are the
types of things that I think are are
subject to change. So, I would just
caution
uh not to have an over-reliance on that
stuff or to look so deeply that you're
you're seeing uh patterns in the tea
leaves.
>> [laughter]
>> Can I I want I want to ask you why you
said heaven forbid this go on for for
years?
>> [laughter]
>> Well, I I you know, I I've I've had it
in my mind since this began that um
it would be kind of a an accelerated
version of what
Forrest Fenn had done in the sense that
he
you know, his treasure hunt grew
organically over the course of many
years. And you know, if you think about
like even the first five years of the
treasure hunt, it wasn't terribly
popular. It really started to gain
momentum in the latter part.
And and this is kind of like a a
treasure hunt on steroids in the sense
that Netflix has catapulted it into
something where people many people have
dove in headfirst on day one.
And so, it's I you know, in terms of
comparison, if I were to
to force it, you know, I'd say that
today is sort of like
year nine of Fenn hunt.
And so, uh
you know, I can imagine the perspective
that that treasure hunters might be
being like that deep into it from day
one and us coming up on the year mark.
So,
you know, yeah
as I think many people have said,
there's a fine line between, you know,
obsession and and something that may or
may not be more healthy.
>> [snorts]
>> So, I think it's just around um
you know, how long does this go on
before, you know, it becomes something
that um has the potential to
um
well, cause more people a deeper
obsession. I like to think that it's a a
great hobby for people and I think it is
for the vast majority of everybody.
Um I think that's probably the only
lingering worry that I have is that
maybe over time
uh certainly for some personality types,
it could become something more.
Uh and nobody I I don't think anybody
wants that that unhealthiness. So,
that's the only thing that gives me
reservation about it lasting too long.
It makes sense. And Megan, he's talking
about you. People
>> He probably is.
>> [laughter]
>> I do not know.
Just to follow up.
Just a follow-up question about that.
You said it feels like you're going into
like year nine of the Forrest Fenn hunt
on year one. Does that mean that
somebody's getting close to finding this
treasure?
You know, I I think it's I mean if there
there have been
more than at least a few people that
have been
fairly close to finding the treasure.
And so
um
you know, it's hard to quantify. There's
a lot of different sources out there,
but um yeah, I think that's fair to say.
With the Forrest Fenn treasure, he said
he regretted putting the bracelet in the
box. Is there any part of your treasure
that you regret putting in that you
wished you had for yourself? And if not
regret, just something you wish that you
had for yourself, a favorite?
Um I put everything each item into the
treasure container intentionally.
And I did it with a lot of thought. So
there's nothing that I regret
putting in there, but there are things
that I put in there that have a very a
deep meaning to me.
Uh and so, you know, in a way it felt
like
um
kind of like passing on a little piece
of what I felt was important to
whoever finds this. And it's
you know, I mean
those types of things are most of them
are not of of great value. It's more of
uh significance than anything else. But
no, I don't regret putting them in
there.
>> [clears throat]
>> All right, I've got another checkpoint
question. Hopefully it's one that you
can answer and not not wait for Seeker
Summit.
>> [laughter]
>> Um did you place the checkpoint there
yourself or was it something that was
already there?
Oh, uh that's a potential for Seeker
Summit, but
>> [laughter]
>> not until then.
And then just a little follow up to
that. It Are you aware of anyone that
has been to the checkpoint?
I'm I'm at least aware of people that
have been close.
Okay.
Okay.
See, we we've had this conversation
about what the checkpoint could be. And
and I envisioned that you you had made
some billboards up with you and Tucker,
maybe like a a faux Humane Society
advertisement or something like that. So
we're looking for something in there
with your face on it is what we're we're
looking for. So
cuz that's when I will absolutely have
zero doubt if I see your face out there
somewhere on a billboard or something,
I'll have zero doubt. So that's about
the only way I think I'll have zero
doubt.
>> option. It's an option.
We Hey, we got to think about it.
>> this interview there's going to be like
a wall with J Money was here spray
painted on it.
>> [laughter]
>> With the J Money tags. I know, exactly,
exactly.
Um Justin, do you feel like the the
community is overcomplicating
the the the poem or or missing something
very simple
um in the process?
I think that's the
the natural inclination for any puzzle
where you don't understand the solution.
I mean, you look at all different types
of puzzles, both mental and physical.
And you know, if you know the answer, it
seems so simple. And then you look uh
and somebody else looks at it and they
try many different things that you never
even thought to try
uh that are just vastly beyond what it
was what it was meant to be. Um
So yeah, I mean, there's certainly
people out there that have
overcomplicate many things.
Uh and then there are other aspects that
I'm just slightly surprised at in terms
of
uh how how simplistic people have taken
it, you know, at at surface value. So I
think it's probably a little bit of
both, but certainly weighted toward many
people that have taken things uh too
deep or or looked uh looked too far.
Okay. Conversely, have you heard anybody
Have you looked at any solves and went,
"Wow, I haven't really thought about
that. That would be an interesting fit.
That that that could really that could
play well in this."
Actually, yes. There have been several
uh
emails that I've received where
uh it was not at all what I intended, uh
but reading through it, it's like, "Wow,
that's actually
quite poetic or quite fitting." And
I wish I had thought of that, you know.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah, absolutely.
Well, thank you. Thanks for reading my
emails. Um
>> [laughter]
>> I think that's what Chris didn't say is
he Chris was one of the ones that went
like way over analyzing it is what he
didn't say.
>> [laughter]
>> We we got this question a couple of
times, so it must be important to quite
a few people. Um
Did you intentionally place small
trinkets or any objects to help build
confidence so people knew that they were
on the right path?
Um
I mean, there is something along the way
that will will help significantly.
Is are you Is that the checkpoint?
I have not specified. Interesting. You
You thought a long time about that one.
That one really
>> [laughter]
>> I I
>> next question is would you like to
specify?
>> [laughter]
>> Not at this time.
Well, very good. That's interesting.
Okay, and trinkets off the be looking
for those. All right.
All right. So today there was a
announcement about a new milestone
coming up for Seeker Summit with our 11
11 goal.
Is there a significance to the number 11
11? What made you pick that number?
What made me pick that number? Uh
I was
I had 30 about 38 seconds between two
calls and
>> [laughter]
>> I had to pick a number.
And it just felt right. That was really
the extent of it. Okay. So the people
reading into it and
Yeah, there's people already that are
like it's the the clues at 11 minutes
and 11 seconds of the episode. So don't
read into it too much is what you're
telling us.
>> bother. No, it's it was just the easiest
thing to type.
Well, good question and good
clarification cuz you've stirred a lot
of you kicked the hornets' nest with the
11 11. So you know how that works,
right?
>> Yeah, no matter what number I chose, it
was going to cause something. So yeah.
It didn't matter. It didn't matter.
You're right. You're right. Uh well, we
appreciate you clarifying that so we're
not chasing the 11 11 all day long and
trying to figure out what that means. So
thank you. That's that's that's helpful.
Um Justin, if BT and me were a game of
hot and cold, where would you say the
community is? Are they they still they
still cold or they getting warmer or
they burning up? And would you be
surprised if the treasure isn't found in
the next year?
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it depends on
your your definition of community. Like
there there are many people that are
searching for the treasure that don't
partake in, you know, a lot of the
social media aspects.
Uh and so there there are many
[clears throat] communities that have
formed within the the the BT and me
world, if you will, whether it's
Discord, Facebook, or a combination
thereof.
Um
uh Reddit and and so forth. And so
you know, I I I
I have been busy enough lately with
other things that
uh I wouldn't say that I've lost touch,
but I I don't have the same pulse that I
did, say, a month ago.
Uh but
you know, I think each of those
communities
group think does
tend to rule the day. And
I think sometimes that can be a
detriment.
And so
you know, if I look at each of them
I wouldn't say that there's
to the best of my knowledge any
any community out there that is is like
way off in left field or anything like
that. Um but I wouldn't I would also say
that I'm not aware of any community that
is like
as a group think uber close either. So
somewhere in between.
I don't know if that helps or not.
No, but you make a good point about
group think and I think that's common
pretty much any in in life, but is there
any So do you want to throw anybody a
bone here or is there any group think
ideas out there that you've seen that
you would like to debunk and like get
people to go, "Okay, don't stop looking
at that. It's not worth your time. Let's
move move on." Get them off that that
track. Is there Is there one out there
that's really big that you see and you
go, "Come on, guys. Let's uh you know,
we need to you want to shoot that down."
Yeah, I mean, I probably just
reiterating what's already
um what I hope is clear on the website.
Like you don't need to go to my
the the houses of my friends and family
in order to track down the treasure.
Um
uh Is that happening a lot?
Uh
there have been some some situations,
yeah.
>> Okay. So people can stay the heck away
from your family like you told them
already.
Yeah. Uh yeah, I think more than
anything it just be maybe kind of reread
the rules and the and the and the safety
stuff. But beyond that, um
not nothing that I'd clarify right now.
Okay. Fair enough. And appreciate the
the clarification on the family thing so
people may may get the the clue on that.
Uh during Seeker Summit, uh we have the
opportunity to compete in world record
breaking treasure hunt um that you're
creating. Is there anything that you can
tell us about that
um, or anything about the hunt in
general?
Sure, yeah. Um,
it's actually a little bit of a tricky
situation because the Arizona Attorney
General and the statutes of Arizona uh,
put some rather severe limitations on
us. And so,
this will be a very
uh, curated or constrained experience.
It's not
how I would prefer to design a treasure
hunt. So,
know that going in. Um,
and it will have many guardrails on it.
Uh,
know that going in.
Uh, and so I think it's just one of
those things where you can only do so
much with those constraints. And
I've tried to do the best that I could
given those constraints. So, I think
probably the first one would be is I
hope you guys aren't too disappointed.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh, but it is kind of it is what it is
at this point. Uh, there there certainly
is a physical aspect to it. It's not
like you'll just be you know, standing
in one place. It's not completely mental
like where you know, trying to solve
something on paper.
Uh, there is a mental aspect to it.
There will be a physical component to it
as well. And that's important because
um, the Guinness Book of World Records
has stringent rules in terms of what
constitutes an actual treasure hunt, a
physical treasure hunt. So, uh, people
will be moving around. There'll be no
need to drive anywhere. It's going to be
on site at the Tucson Expo Center.
Everything will be indoors.
And
uh, you really there's not much you
could do in terms of prep work. The the
main things that I'd say just in terms
of Secret Summit in general is if you
have a mobile device, bring it. You
don't need it for the treasure hunt.
It's more around getting access to
submit your questions for the Q&A
efficiently.
And you know, to help with the check-in
process. And then the other piece would
be um, see if you can [clears throat]
recall the email that you used when you
purchased your tickets cuz that'll be
useful in order uh, to get access to the
the site that powers the Q&A.
Uh, in terms of the treasure hunt
beyond that, um,
it might be useful to bring something
that you can uh, write on. You know, I
mean a clipboard or just you know, a
book or something where that's kind of
flat and hard where you
you can actually write on it as you as
you move around. And that'd be that'd be
my only advice so far.
Perfect. Okay.
All right. So, I know you've watched
some of our episodes before.
>> [clears throat and cough]
>> We have one question that we like to ask
every single guest that comes on.
So, do you have an embarrassing or funny
story that happened to you while you
were boots on the ground?
>> [laughter]
>> That's that all of my boots on the
ground?
Oh, jeez.
Um,
boy, I don't even know where to start.
Uh, I've had many embarrassing
experiences.
Um,
>> [laughter]
>> there's one time when I was hiking and I
I I heard a noise
and I thought it was
an animal like rooting around, snorting,
and making noises. And
>> [laughter]
>> I went to investigate said noise and it
was actually a a hiker that had stepped
off the path that was um,
uh, going number two. And
there's a lot of noises associated with
that that I totally mistook for
something else.
And I got way too close before I didn't
I saw the person. And it was just a
really awkward situation. So, that was
pretty embarrassing. Yeah.
Well, luckily you didn't hit him with
some bear spray or something. Here's a
>> [laughter]
>> It's not good. Not good. That would have
been Yeah, that would have been a really
good story.
All right. Justin, we've kind of exhaust
we've gone through our our rapid fire or
not a rapid fire question, our round
robin questions there. Um,
went through a little quicker than I
thought. But we do have a lot of little
rapid fire questions. Again, your your
your no no harm no foul to just punt on
any of these or or tell us you know,
maybe Secret Summit. But if you'd like
to answer them, I'm sure the community
would really enjoy that. So, What is
I'll go ahead. What's that? Oh, I said
I'll do my best. Go right ahead.
>> Well, you well, that's yes, exactly.
What question are you tired of treasure
hunters asking you?
Tired?
Um,
hm.
When you hear it, you're like, not
again. Seriously. Yeah, it's not that
there's a question that I'm tired of.
It's more I think
the one that kind of still gives me a
chuckle to this day is
where people will send emails and
you know, they're really looking for a
hint. And so, they're just you know,
respond if I'm just in the right general
area or respond if uh,
you know, with an emoji if you know, on
this video if you think that and so on.
And
I mean, of course I'm not I'm I'm not
going to indulge in that. But
uh, I the persistence has been very
impressive. There have been a lot of
people that have tried very hard. And I
think the most unique one
uh, and you know who you are. Uh,
the was actually at the book signing
event in Dillon.
And when I received a book to sign, on
the page it said,
"Is the treasure in Montana? If no, sign
on this side. If yes, sign on the other
the other side of the page."
>> [laughter]
>> And I feel you know, it's kind of like
this nonchalant type of thing where
nobody will know. Just pick a page. And
of course I I turned to a totally
different page number and signed. But
>> [laughter]
>> people try. Yeah.
Right. Yeah, I you know, I guess it's
just human nature. We're going to we're
going to try to get what we can out of
you. But yeah, I can understand that
being like you know, like blink twice if
it's in Montana.
>> [laughter]
>> Okay, never mind.
Let me ask you a question about Secret
Summit. Well, aside from the fact that
you're going to eliminate at least one
state
um, right from from BTME depending on
and possibly two if we have a number of
questions. Uh, my I want to know have
you one have you decided what that
state's going to be. Two, if you have,
are we going to go
meh like if you when you say it or are
we going to be like ooh like ooh, I
can't believe he eliminated that state.
Well, frankly, I'm on the fence. And
there are there are two states in my
mind that are on the chopping block.
Um,
now, if in the
uh, Emma, don't kill me for saying this.
But I think the rare chance that we we
hit 2,000, I would I would eliminate
both of those those states that are in
my mind. Uh, but if we don't, I'm still
I'm still debating
which one it's going to be. And I think
you know, each
state elimination would have a very
different impact. And so, I'm still
still mulling it over. I like to keep my
options open. Um, I'm I'm leaning toward
one versus the other. But I haven't made
a solid firm decision yet. Okay. Is it
important to you to get that good
reaction of ooh or just everybody to go
uh?
Uh, you know, Do you do you care?
I do care because um,
you know, I mean, certainly people are
investing their time and and resources
to be at the Secret Summit. And so,
it's important to me that that
well, people enjoy themselves while
they're there. And I think the the state
elimination is is a part of that
experience.
Uh, I mean, certainly it'll be posted on
the website and so on afterward. Uh, so
it's not like you're getting a huge leg
up by by being there necessarily. It's
more just around the the excitement, I
think. And so,
yeah, I mean, I I think that that
portion is is important to me. Yeah.
Okay. Fair good. Fair enough. We're very
excited. There's been a lot debate. We
we talked about that with we were on
M&J's show last week and we had a big
discussion about it. So, hopefully I'm
sure they'll bring it up tomorrow when
they talk to you. Um, so if if we only
eliminate one there,
how would you feel about coming back on
here in a couple months and eliminating
another one with us?
Stranger things have happened, you know.
>> [laughter]
>> That's true.
That's very true. Okay, Justin,
uh, has anybody solved the cipher? And
if not, can we get a hint on the cipher?
To the best of my knowledge, no. No one
has solved the cipher. And
uh, that is actually something I do
plan to
clarify or or provide some some clarity
on it at at the Secret Summit to help
uh, push that one along a bit if you
will.
And you know, I think as I mentioned
before, the
the cipher answer is not
something that will
give you a a huge advantage or anything.
It's more around
helping you understand what the
container is, which I think in some
regard could help.
Um,
but that's the main point of the of the
cipher. And I think there is a sticking
point that I've
I realized uh,
fairly quickly after everything launched
um, that I think there's a many people
that are just a little bit hung up on.
And I think with just a slight amount of
of additional clarity there that will
will get some progress. Okay. We're
overthinking it.
Uh, no. I it's not that people I mean,
some people certainly are. But
um,
I see it as a for lack of a better term
a noise problem.
There is too much there is too much
noise that's been interjected that makes
it difficult to
to filter out to see
what you need to see. And so I need to I
need to rectify that. Okay, a groupthink
problem perhaps.
Well, maybe a little. Maybe.
>> Okay,
fair enough.
Um speaking of hints, can we get a hint
on the clocks?
>> [laughter]
>> Maybe a secret summit.
>> Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.
Um do we need to pay special attention
to the 1652 oak tree shilling? It seems
to be pretty important to you. Some
folks have asked about that.
Yes, so the
I don't know if I've ever mentioned the
backstory on that. Maybe I have, so I
apologize if I repeat myself, but
um
the 1652 oak tree shilling actually
the original one that I
had actually came from my grandfather
and it was from his collection and
it
it was very special to me just because
of how I became how I came to learn
about it and where it came from. And it
turned out that that coin was
counterfeit. And I was just heartbroken
when I found that out and I never had
the heart to tell him
my grandfather that it that it was
counterfeit. And so it it bothered me a
lot over the years and I and I had just
said to myself back then that one day I
if I ever have the means I will
I will get one, but it'll be the real
thing. And I actually really wanted to
do that before my grandfather passed and
it didn't didn't work out, but I did end
up getting it and that's
that's the significance of it. It's kind
of a little bit of the backstory. Oh,
that's awesome. Did you get one to keep
for yourself?
Uh no, that's actually that's the only
one and it it went into the treasure. Um
as far as I know it's it's I think it's
tied for the highest graded Ando edition
oak tree shilling in existence. So it's
it's it's pretty rare.
Okay, very good. Well,
I'll tell you this. I'll if when I find
the treasure, I'm going to I'm going to
give that back to you. So it's
That's that's kind of you to offer, but
No strings attached really. Whoever
finds it it's all yours. It's buddy. You
guys own this. So
Um let's ask about you you you gave when
the when the technical clue was was
discovered, you you let the community
know that that was found. Are you going
to let the community know when the
checkpoint is discovered or if the
checkpoint is discovered?
Um
if I come to learn that the checkpoint
has been discovered,
I would likely announce that it has been
discovered, but I would not divulge what
it is until after the treasure is found.
Fair enough. Okay.
Good answer. Good answer.
Um this is for me. Is a gazebo a
structure or a building?
>> [laughter]
>> You know, that's a funny one. Um
I think based on the formal definition,
a gazebo
would be considered a type of building,
especially as it pertains to things like
building codes, but I could be mistaken
there. I would actually have to check a
uh a dictionary to be absolutely
certain, but I would tend toward it
being a building. I could be off base. I
I'm not concerned what the dictionary
says. I'm concerned what you think a
gazebo is.
>> [laughter]
>> I I would categorize
you know, a building being anything that
has um
uh a shelter from from the elements in
terms of having some sort of overhead
component to it and something that you
can quote unquote step inside. So, you
know, you can step into a gazebo. So
personally, I would consider that to be
a form of a building. Okay, very good.
I'm thank you for answering that. I
appreciate that. Um speaking of the
rules and man-made and things like that.
I I know that you know,
you spent a lot of time in the book
talking about loopholes. Maybe not a lot
of time, but there definitely was some
chapters on loopholes. Are there any
loopholes in the rules that you put
aside? Is there is there going to be an
aha moment where we go, okay, like we
need to look at we need to look at this
from a loophole perspective, not just
what he said about man-made structure or
near gravestones or graveyards like
things like that. Like is there a
is are there any loopholes built into
the rules?
Not none that are are intentional. I
mean, I think there's one that maybe
arguably somebody could quibble about.
Um but beyond that, no. No, the the
rules are really meant to be cut and
dry. Okay.
Interesting. So that that makes me
wonder like why all the loophole talk if
there's no loopholes in the rules. So
but that's okay.
>> [laughter]
>> Is there a poem solver there's more than
one clue with a man-made implication?
Is there a poem solver there's more than
one clue with a man-made implication?
Maybe that's not very clear. That
Yeah, I'm thinking through this.
I want to make sure I answer this
accurately. So I I I'm willing to answer
this just
I want to think a little bit of more
about it before I provide an answer. So
I'll consider it a follow-up. Yeah.
Okay, got it. Got it. Got it.
Okay,
well to kind of a another part of that.
Can a hunt item be displayed on the
outside of a man-made building or
structure?
Maybe not inside a structure, but uh
on the outside.
Uh I don't want to
to limit that. So I I would say it's
it's always a possibility. Got it.
Is the BTME logo a clue?
Um
what I can say is that I I designed the
the logo intentionally.
And um it has it has some meaning.
Okay. Okay.
Um are you too smart for us mortals? Are
you um
I I like to say Justin has confirmation
bias. You know, when you when you talk
when you're giving out answers and
things like that. Like if you know
exactly what the solve is, like it's
easy for you to to um
maybe
not translate in the way that us mere
mortals are able to to understand. We
know you're a super smart guy,
engineering guy, you know, math guy.
Um is this going to be too hard for us?
I'm probably a lot worse at math than
you you might guess. Um
No, you know, so when I designed this, I
really
I think somebody I
Megan, you might ask earlier this this
question about um
you know, what
what I would embrace most is in terms of
designing the treasure hunt and it is
that that childlike wonder. And so
uh at least in my mind, I like to think
that somebody of
you know, even
pretty young age would be able to
to solve this if they put their mind to
it and
and you know, figured out the right
stuff and the right context and so on.
Uh
So
you know, it's nothing that requires any
sort of you know, college degree or
really even any high school diploma or
anything like that. Um
I tried to make it as approachable as as
I could. Okay.
Now having said that, would people that
maybe have a background in fishing or
hunting or hiking or outdoorsy type out
activities, would they have a leg up on
on most folks in this?
You know, I think it's almost impossible
to design
something where
there's zero specialized knowledge in
anything in the world that would, you
know, give somebody a leg up. Uh
So I'm hesitant to say
I'm hesitant to to say that it wouldn't
help. Um
but probably not as much as as people
might think. Okay. Okay, fair enough.
Are you willing to rule out digging and
the the treasure being buried?
Yeah, I I think I think you know,
if if you know where the treasure's at,
it's not going to matter either way. So
I'm it's not something I'm willing to
rule out at this time.
Okay, interesting. Okay.
Um have you ever had to go check on the
box for any any weather conditions?
No, I haven't. Um
at at this stage certainly I'd be
reticent or
very cautious about doing anything like
that. So I have no plans in the future
to
ever return to the exact location of the
treasure. Okay, cuz obviously you're
familiar with Posey Tracker where we
have you we have we have scouts on the
ground following your every move exactly
where you're going at all times, right?
>> You don't know how late you are
actually.
>> [laughter]
>> Oh, am I Sorry, I was being a little I
was being a little facetious, but
I guess it wouldn't surprise me, huh?
Yeah, I mean, there
Yeah, some tricky people out there, you
know. I mean, for instance, you know, I
get packages in the mail and
uh you know, it'll be a gift, but
there'll be something built into the
gift that happens to track location.
Lots of lots of fun little things that
you got to deal with. So there's always
gotchas. Yeah. Interesting. Well, what's
what's the most what's the craziest
thing you've gotten in the in the mail
based on you know, for
that's trying to track you or or what
whatever that that you got. Oh gosh. Um
Um
I think more than anything what the
craziest thing that surprised me was the
sophistication.
Uh
You know, certainly
it's not like somebody went to the dime
store and set this up. It was It was
quite well done.
Um
And it was more just around the compact
form and how it was incorporated
incorporated into a gift that I received
uh that made it rather hard to detect.
And the the gift was very intentional in
the sense that it would be very tempting
for somebody say like me uh to have it
on me at all times because it's it it
it's meant to be an everyday
convenience. So, uh
it was very very well designed. I'll
I'll give the person credit there.
Wow, so do you have something that can
detect that? Like some kind of bug or
scanner or something that detects things
that are you know, help that that are
tracking devices or what I'm fascinated
with that looks like.
>> [laughter]
>> It's a It's actually a a a rather
rigorous system. You know, there's
um
almost nothing can be delivered directly
to my house. And
>> Oh.
um
My mail goes through a a fairly
elaborate system.
And
um
you know, it is never opened at the
house. And
it is thoroughly scanned and vetted
before anything comes to the house.
Uh and so on. So, it's it's a whole
system and I'm sure my family just can't
stand me for it. So
Well,
>> [laughter]
>> it sounds elaborate, but it just it gets
me I mean, I never would have thought
that that would be a thing that you
would have to set up a system for your
mail that that
for things to go through. It makes me
wonder like what other systems do you
have in place in your life that that
normal people don't think about that
you're you're having to deal with now
because you're you know, you're J Money
and everybody wants a a piece of of you
and wants the wants the
to be involved with this. Like Can I If
you don't mind, I mean, do you have
anything else that you you want to share
that you systems that you have to put in
place just to keep your own safety and
sanity?
Yeah, I mean, it's
you know, I went in eyes wide open. So,
I'm not complaining. It's It's more
around
uh I think this is probably just good
advice for people that are looking to do
a large-scale treasure hunt is that
uh in in some respects, it will run your
life if uh well, no matter what you do,
uh especially if you if you try and do
it right.
>> [laughter]
>> And and to uh make sure that it
continues to be fair for everybody.
Uh there there are a lot of things. You
know, I mean
I've I've gosh, I could probably write a
whole book about it.
Uh you know, being in in certain public
places and people putting trackers on
vehicles or
uh
you know, following me from place to
place seeing where I'm going or um
um
uh befriending people that are friends
with me
um
in order to pose what seemed to be
innocuous questions to me uh that are
actually quite the opposite. And so, I
have kind of this constant radar, if you
will.
>> [laughter]
>> So, no matter who it is when they're
asking me questions or talking to me
uh it's it's really a state of constant
vigilance. Interesting.
>> I think that um
I'm I'm okay with it. You know, I I've
I've kind of built it into my lifestyle
and I I feel I feel good about it. But I
can imagine that for many people's
lifestyles, it would be very hard.
And so, I I would say that you know, a
large-scale treasure hunt is not for
everybody.
And you do need to think about those
those types of things before you you
embark on on something like this because
you know, in in in some some respects,
it is a a form of an an obligation, if
you will. But I'm still having a lot of
fun with it. So, again, I'm not
complaining. It's just things that have
happened. Okay. Well, it's interesting
because in Vegas like you
you were so approachable and and so just
just mingling and having a good time and
I didn't see like that you know, kind of
what you're saying like you know, you
had all these treasure hunters in a room
that would have you know, given their
left arm to get some kind of clue or
something out of you. But you were very
but you're very personable, you're very
open, approachable. Um seems a little
bit of a contrast from from what you're
what you're describing. Um I guess my
question would be would you do this
again?
You know, it's it's been a very unique
experience. And and I think I
I feel that I can relate to Forrest Fenn
on a different level than I I could
ever. And it and it was just it was easy
for me to sit back and pontificate and
think, oh, well, this is what it's going
to be like. Uh but it's an entirely
different thing to to experience it
firsthand. And and there are certainly
certainly still you know, family members
that are close to me that
um
you know, there there are times where
they might not realize the gravity of
the situation.
And uh you know, they're
they they will certain actions like
totally unintentional
uh that that can at times exacerbate the
the situation. Um so, no, I I I don't
regret it. Would I do it again?
I think the honest answer is I don't
know yet. Uh I want to follow this
through to completion and see what the
uh the end result is.
You know, I think it's true to say that
many treasure hunts
uh end poorly
after it's found. And so, I think that's
really the real Yeah, that that that is
the the litmus test here to make sure
uh this is all kind of airtight, if you
will. And depending on how that goes, I
I could see a future where
you know, an an additional treasure hunt
could happen. Oh, you got to hear first.
An additional treasure hunt from Justin.
That's what I think you know, Megan has
speculated that there you know, they
talk about the two letters in your in
your in the in the box there. One for
the steward and what's the other? The
bomb show one. So, that's what we're
we're maybe thinking that it might be
part two of of that. So Stranger things
have happened. Yeah. Uh uh
>> [clears throat]
>> okay. Very good. Very good.
Um oh gosh, I had a follow-up there and
I just lost it. But that's all right. I
have other questions for you. Um do the
illustrations in the book have clues in
them?
You know, that that
building building clues into things that
you have to convey to another person is
is a challenging thing. So, a good
example would be the hint that was found
in the song.
Uh the only reason that I was able to do
that is because I had
you know, a
a deep level of of control in the final
product that was produced. Mhm. And you
know, the illustrations
are challenging in that regard because
you know, it's not like you just call up
the illustrator and say, "Hey, I want
all of these very specific aspects built
into an illustration because they're
important." It's kind of a tip-off. Mhm.
And so, um
you know, I I I had a lot of direction
that I gave to the illustrator in terms
of what I wanted. But at the end of the
day, she had the final choice in terms
of how it was rendered.
Um so, I'm not I'm purposely not
answering the question directly. Uh
but what I will say is that uh the
illustrator, she she has no special
knowledge. It's not like you know, I I I
told her very specific things or
anything like that.
Fair enough. Okay, great. I remember my
question. Going back to like the where
you talked about about how how your hunt
wraps up
whenever it comes to fruition. How
important is it for you that people look
at the solve and go, "That makes sense.
I understand it. Logically, I can go
point A, point B, you know, point B, C
all the way through." Not do I like it,
not do I agree with it. But is it
important for you that you know, and you
know, reasonable person is a very loose
definition these days. But a reasonable
person looks at it and goes, "I
understand that. That makes sense to me.
I think I I can see how that that
works."
Is that important to you?
I mean, I I I think within reason. I
mean, it it would be strange to hold a
treasure hunt where
you know, a
a very small minority even understood in
retrospect what it even means. And so
Yeah, I mean, I I think that is
important. And it's like
I Well, a good example would be a Sudoku
puzzle, right? Like once it's solved
I anybody can do it and look at the math
and say, "Well, yeah, it's it's
definitely correct. There's no ifs,
ands, or buts about it." And then at the
opposite end of the spectrum
you know, if you tell somebody to go
uh you know, jump in a lake. And then
it's like, "Well, there's
12 million lakes in the world. Like
which one are you talking about?" Uh
Well, well, I meant that one over in
Norway, right? I mean, that
that's kind of the opposite end of it.
Like how would anybody have ever known
it was Norway?
And so, I think there's somewhere in
there there's a middle ground. And I
like to think that when this is over
uh people will have more understanding.
And the average person would be able to
say
"Okay.
Seems reasonable."
Okay.
Um the only thing I got out of that
whole thing, Justin, was that we need to
go jump in a lake is what I've heard.
>> [laughter]
>> The jump in a lake is it definitely a
clue and we need to jump in a lake. All
right. Can you tell me which lake it is?
Blink twice for Lake Minnetonka.
>> [laughter]
>> You sound like a treasure hunter. Yeah.
Um this is this is more schematic so
people you know, and I I've I've heard
people say this and and I I you know, I
just I I think it might be helpful for
them to hear you say it. A lot of people
when they say um or like content
creators say um people have been within
200 ft of this or that or the other
thing." They they want to argue that,
"Well, well maybe it's just random
people walking around hiking on a trail.
It's not searchers." Can you Can you
clear Can you confirm that when you say
someone is within 200 ft up at the
checkpoint or people are close, you're
talking about actual searchers? That's
just to clarify that. Is that a fair
way to put that? I know people get
wrapped up in the in the wording of that
sometimes. I just wanted to clarify
that.
I mean, it it's true to say that there
there have been at least a few searchers
that have been
uh
quite close.
Uh yeah, quite close. Okay. But, they
are searchers. They're They're not just
random, you know, cuz people will take
that as you're saying 200 They are
searchers. People have been with that.
Okay, perfect. That's just That was just
a clarification point there. Um the
Forrest Fenn hunt required a river
crossing to get to the the treasure box.
Does yours require any kind of river
crossing, wading through water?
I have not specified.
I'm not I'm giving you the opportunity,
Justin. That's what this is all about.
I appreciate the opportunity. Noted.
>> Okay, well okay.
>> [laughter]
>> All right, fine, JMoney. I see you.
Are you concerned that someone not
looking for the treasure is going to
find it?
I think in on the in the broad spectrum
of spectrum of things that are
concerning to me, it's
it's lower on the totem pole.
Okay. How low on the totem pole?
Just kidding. At the bottom? I don't
know. Okay.
These two questions are for me. Did you
ever search for dinosaur in Dinosaur
National Monument for the Forrest Fenn
treasure?
Hm.
Uh for the Forrest Fenn treasure, no.
You didn't.
Okay, well, that's
that's disappointing. That's just me.
Sorry.
And um Megan kind of prompted this
question for me after me telling her
a story about my moose encounter while
searching for for your treasure. Um is a
moose the animal that you're referring
to that you didn't expect to see, but
you saw?
Uh I hate to bust people's bubbles, but
I've seen uh many moose over the years.
So, that is that is not the animal in
question. All right. Do you think if if
someone were to come up with the correct
animal, then they would
be able to fine-tune their solve? Would
they Would that narrow it down if they
figured out what animal you saw?
It certainly wouldn't hurt.
And what animal is that, Justin?
>> [laughter]
>> I'm not going to volunteer yet.
I try. You know, I try. That's right.
We'd be doing my job here, you know,
anyway. So,
uh Justin, hey,
that pretty much wraps up our our
rapid-fire. Um we got a couple minutes
left. Jaws, Megan, any any last
questions that have popped up for you
for Justin? I know we we've had a list
that we wanted to go through.
I think we got everything on the list.
Perfect. Perfect.
Justin, how much do you want to Do you
want to talk at all about Secret Summit,
anything that
coming up that for that that you want to
let us know about or surprises that you
know, you want to give us a bombshell
that we can we can use to boost our
numbers to get up to to 200 viewers
instead of a 100? So,
>> [laughter]
>> Oh, gosh. Uh I mean, I think it's going
to be a great time for everybody and
you know, I I think that the total
attendee count is is a little up in the
air. Uh
You know, I I
my perspective on this is I think we're
going to be right on the edge in terms
of whether or not we can break that
world record. I mean, I think it'd be an
exciting thing for America to be able to
hold the title for the
the the Guinness treasure hunt record.
Um
But, I don't I don't think it's a
prerequisite to having fun there. Uh
You know, I I think Emma's been doing a
fantastic job in terms of drumming up
marketing and so on. And you know, I've
gotten some messages about this. Uh
You know, something to the effect that
it's a um
it seems to be kind of like the the core
focal point of the treasure hunt right
now.
Uh
And I suppose to a certain degree it is
because there are are so many people
that are making travel arrangements and
so on to be there. Uh but, I certainly
haven't lost sight of the
the treasure hunt in general. Uh and I
you know, I think Secret Summit is
actually one of those events that um you
know, Beyond the Map's Edge I I really
think that the concept of treasure
hunting, our modern-day treasure
hunting,
will actually become more popular over
time. And I like to think a venue,
whether it's Treasure Con or Secret
Summit or any of the other ones that
that that pop up, I think are going to
grow.
And so, I like I like kind of being in
on the ground floor of that and seeing
seeing it kind of take off. And that's
the other question that I've got is um
you know, why why are there
why are there commercial aspects to
the treasure hunting convention that's
happening at Secret Summit? And you
know, the answer to that is that
well, we needed funding.
>> [laughter]
>> And you know, I I'd normally be very
concerned around
mixing commercial interests with
something like Beyond the Map's Edge. I
realize how ironic that is given that it
was on Netflix, but uh
you know, I the reason that I I'm
personally okay with this is because it
is uh it's for all treasure hunt
creators. It's not just this Beyond the
Map's Edge thing. And and I think that
there's an opportunity to to pull in the
right sponsors so that the event can be
all that it can all that it should be.
And so, there are some sponsorship
implications to it, but I certainly
don't see it being in a position where
it's overshadowing
uh
you know, the the purity of of treasure
hunting. And And I think if it gets to
that point, then that would be a more
concerning discussion. But, I would love
to hear feedback after this. Um
uh Secret Summit. Mainly because uh not
just because the treasure hunt part
might be disappointing,
but the
uh
but just the honest reaction. I mean, I
think it's something that that is a good
case study and it's something we can
build on in future years. And it's not
something I'm running. It's something
that that Treasure Hunt with us and and
Froggy and and Jenny Kyle and so on are
all all putting together. Uh but, I
think it's something that can grow
uh over the years and become a real
staple of of uh of a hobby.
Excellent. Yes, we're very excited about
it. We had the same discussion last week
about that. We think we are on the kind
of the bleeding edge of the of the
treasure hunt
world. I think that there there might be
some some movement, you know, Mr. Beast
with his
Super Bowl one. You know, people are
going to try to maybe one up your
treasure or or John's treasure. You
know, there's going to be people coming
out of the woodwork to do that stuff.
So, I think you we might be on the the
edge of a phenomenon here. We'll We'll
see. So, I hope so.
Yeah. And just just remember who your
buddies were when it does happen, right?
>> [laughter]
>> Justin, you want to let people know what
you have coming up in the next couple
weeks before in the run-up to Secret
Summit? See, I wish I had a list to do a
rundown. I know that there's an
interview
with the Quarter Hoarder on YouTube
that's coming up.
I'm embarrassed that I don't recall the
date. I think it's the the 19th.
And then
I'll be on Treasure Hunt with us
tomorrow evening.
And then we're also doing a KOLD News 13
Tucson Now
uh um
streaming broadcast while
pretty close to the Secret Summit. I
think it's the day before, maybe a
couple days before. But, I'll I'll post
more info as I get it on the website.
Uh and then yeah, I mean, just for
awareness, like there's going to be
several different
media people at the Secret Summit event.
I know that uh
Outdoor Magazine is doing a a big thing
on it. And then we've got uh
I think the director or producer from
Filthy Fortunes.
Uh and then of course some of the folks
that were involved in the Netflix side.
And there's a few other media folks that
are are coming out as well. So, it'll be
just kind of a a culmination of a lot of
different backgrounds coming together.
So, I think it'll be fun. Excellent.
Sounds like a great time. Justin Posey,
Beyond the Map's Edge. JMoney, we
appreciate you being on X Marks the Pod.
It's been a great time. I I feel like
you've given some really good stuff for
the community. So looking forward to
Secret Summit, having you out there, and
maybe even getting some more nuggets
that you've kind of kind of teased that
we'll get to to experience that at the
Secret Summit. Should be a great time.
Look forward to seeing you shaking your
head out there in the 110° heat in
Tucson. Thanks so much.
>> heat here.
>> [laughter]
>> All right. Thanks, Justin. Thank you,
Justin.
See you.
Adventurous calling, [music] treasure
awaits. Join us on a journey, let's open
the gates. Welcome to the POD WHERE THE
TREASURE is found. X MARKS THE POD,
LET'S GATHER AROUND.